A question for natives of Germany
 

How do you interpret "Gemütlichkeit" to those from other places?

I'm taking a German language course and we all get to do presentations on German culture, and that's my topic. I sort of understand the Dutch way of interpreting gezelligheid, but wonder how different it might be in Germany? And if it is consistent in different parts of Germany?

Dutch is, more or less, German from the middle ages and then grown along a different path. The two words have the same meaning.

Why would you think that a standard German word would have different meaning in different parts of Germany? There are several dialects in German and the word may well be different in these dialects, but the meaning will almost certainly be the same.

Not according to quite a few folks I've talked to who insist the Germans and the Dutch do things differently.

I didn't ask for the dictionary meaning, I asked for a personal/cultural interpretation of the concept. My great-grandparents from southern Germany had very different cultural traditions than the ones from northern Germany - one of the things stressed by my professor is how culturally different the various regions of Germany are because the area we now call "Germany" has historically been a group of smaller states with political/cultural ties of varying strengths. Does a Bavarian celebrate the same way as a Bohemian and a Hanovarian(sp?)?

I'm Dutch with German parents. I'm not sure what you mean by "the Germans and the Dutch do things differently."

It seems to me you are assuming because the cultures have differences that the languages do as well. As I originally wrote, local/cultural language is often a dialect. The words may be different, but the meaning is usually the same. Otherwise, what's the point of languages?

The history of Germany is very similar to the history of most other European countries with one difference: many of those other countries became nations before Germany did. Germany did not become a single nation until 1871. However, like most other European countries, regional differences remain, as well as local dialects.

Gemütlich and gezellig mean essentially the same thing, just as laufen and lopen mean the same thing or gehen and gaan do. And those words have the same meanings throughout the countries where they are used. Have you ever heard of Hochdeutsch?

I´m not sure if gemütlich and gezellig means the same. Gesellig (in German) means, that you are together with other people in a pleasant way. Gemütlich has a main definition, but means something different for everyone. First it means something is comfortable for you, you simple like it. For example a warm place with a soft sofo or something like that. If you say someone is gemütlich it can mean, the he is relxed. That´s the positive way. It can also mean, that he is slow or uninterested, that´s the negative way.

If you show people pictures from places and ask if it is gemütlich, you will get very different answers.

As a Dutch and German speaker, I would say that gemütlich and gezellig do mean the same thing. At least, when speaking to people in Dutch or German the meaning is quite clear and both words are used in the same way, usually in the context of a place. However, gezellig in Dutch also has the same meaning as gesellig in German when speaking about a person.

Showing people photos and asking if the place looks gemütlich or gezellig really seems more a question of personal taste. For example, I like the simple wood interiors of Bavarian country pubs, but, at home, I like something softer and darker.

While there might be regional differences, I do think it mostly comes down to personal taste. Some people's 'gemütlich' is my 'kitschig' or 'überfüllt', some think a 'gemütliche Gruppe' is 15 people, other think it's 3, etc.

Dutch and German are close enough for me as a German to easily understand writen texts in Dutch. To understand the spoken language takes a little more concentration, but still is possible.

To also answer the OP's question: I would would use gemütlich pretty much the same way cozy is used in English.

When I learned how to pronounce Dutch alphabet pairings, it was then very easy for me to understand the language. Huis (nl) doesn't look like it sounds just like Haus (de). Nor does druiven (nl) and Trauben (de). But they do sound almost identical.

I had a Dutch boyfriend a while back. And we would sometimes go to his sister's family house for dinner. They didn't speak English. And we communicated by me speaking in German and they in Dutch. It wasn't perfect. And sometimes my boyfriend would have to interpret. But it worked.

"German Gemütlichkeit" is a stereotype among overseas visitors, especially Americans, that most Germans consider a bit of a laugh.

"Gemütlich" is a term that no German would attribute to, for example, a beer hall or an Oktoberfest tent. It means quiet, cosy surroundings where one feels relaxed, at ease, "at home". Think a cuddly sofa you never want to rise from, candles on the table, a good wine in your glass, the cat purring in your lap, friendly company to talk to... that's what we'd call "gemütlich".

Quite so. What I think most of them miss is the social part of the word. I think it's a bit like describing hurricane as a lot of rain.

I think that explanation is spot on. Gemütlicher Abend for me would mean on a cold night staying at home on the sofa, having a cup of tea or a glass of wine, lighting a candle and maybe watching a DVD. Going to a crowded place would be the opposite of gemütlich.

Sorry, but I think you're still missing it. Both the German and Dutch versions have, as I wrote above, a social aspect to them. Staying by yourself either at home or at a pub is neither gemütlich or gezellig. Doing it with some friends (even new ones) is (or can be).

For very good reason there is no translation of gemütlichkeit....

I disagree with your intuitions about "gemütlich". Geselligkeit requires more than one person. Gemütlichkeit does not.

"Sich einen gemütlichen Abend machen" does not require anything more than a comfortable sofa, dimmed-down lights and a good book.

And it looks like other native speakers are in agreement here:

http://de.answers.yahoo.com/question...0103912AAhNG0o

>Staying by yourself either at home or at a pub is neither gemütlich or gezellig.

Gesellig no, because that means being in (pleasant) company. But you can have a "gemütlichen Abend" all by yourself, there is no company needed, and the term does not necessarily imply company. These two words do not mean the same at all. Trust a native speaker.

I don't speak Dutch but gesellig and gemütlich are two different concepts in German - although there is some overlap. You can most definitely be "gemütlich" all by yourself. Think cozy(ness).

And while Gemütlichkeit is a German word I don't think that the word is used much at all. Don't think I've ever used it - except when speaking to Americans who apparently think that the Oktoberfest is a prime example of the concept.

Well, there is that song... "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit". And according to Wikipedia it's "(ein) gängiger Trinkspruch auf dem Oktoberfest"

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosit

(Never been to Oktoberfest - not my scene!)

Yes, you're right. Maybe that's the origin of the American disconnect with the concept. That is certainly a song that gets played during the "Wiesn" about a 100 times a day. But still, no resident of Munich would ever call the Oktoberfest "gemütlich". It's usually the exact opposite.

Well, I do speak Dutch and German and the two words in German are certainly related. In fact, in my Dutch/German dictionary, gesellig is translated as gezellig (not the first definition though) and gemütlich is translated as gezllig. So, if A=C and B=C, then A=B (OK, these are words, not numbers, but I'm showing a relationship).

If you think you can be gemütlich (or gezellig) by yourself, that's a context that is new to me.

I can certainly understand your point about Oktoberfest and gemütlich (although I've never been there myself), as I can't see how you could call a tent with several hundred people "cozy." However, the social aspect of the word could apply provided you've "connected" with some of those people. Nevertheless, I would agree that a mass event could probably never be called gemütlich or gezellig.

When I think Gemütlichkeit, a different song comes to my mind: http://youtu.be/Bp_5viK2lTo

Probier's mal mit Gemütlichkeit, mit Ruhe und Gemütlichkeit.

If Germans say they are planning on having a 'gemütlicher Abend', it usually means that they will spend it by themselves. If it is with friends, that's usually specified ('mit Freunden'). I have never heard of anybody having a 'gemütlicher Abend' in a bar etc. Public places can be 'gemütlich' but that has nothing to do with 'Geselligkeit' but with the atmosphere of the place.
If you check the Duden, you will find that Geselligkeit is just one possible aspect of Gemütlichkeit.

Again, you may want to listen to the native speakers.

What is the basis of this statement? Why is that it conflicts with Germans? For example, here: http://www.erdbeerlounge.de/erdbeert...nd-_t1754402s1

Not single post on that page supports your claim of spending it alone or at home.

That's not how I read it. There are less than a handful of posts that refer to being outside of the domestic sphere ("Mit meinen Freundinnen im Rosencafé sitzen", "Mit meinen Freunden bei Sonnenuntergang am Rhein liegen"). All the others talk about being in the home or garden, either alone or with friends.

I think one should trust those with native-speaker intuitions here...

Yes, I think I over-stated because of that silly post. But, I would add that the number of posts with "Terasse" are speaking about a café or pub, so I should correct myself and say a good number disagree about spending the time at home.

But I stand by the statement that not a single post refers to spending the evening alone.
I agree.

Now that you made me read through those comments, here we go:

:):)

Oh, bravo. You've managed to dig out four from about 40 comments toward what end?

Does you think this somehow makes you ex-pats correct?

As several here have said: listen to the native speakers.

Well, four is certainly more than "not a single one". And how do know that I'm not a native speaker? ;)

No, they're talking about a domestic patio. Pretty clear from the context.

Do you know the expression selbstverständlich?

And it's actually only three since one made it clear that she knew it.

In a few cases, perhaps. But, other cases, such as this: "auf der Terasse mit meinem Freund oder Freunden, bei nem Glöschen Wein" not so clear.

That's a word, not an expression. :)

And the OP has now heard a variety of opinions. And since he has to do a presentation, he can now report that Germans and foreigners have different concepts in mind, when they talk about Gemütlichkeit. Which will most likely make for an interesting presentation.

Hardly surprising, is it? After all, Germans have their own rather amusing interpretations of English language terms as well.

Just consider "public viewing". Need I say more?

That may sound ambiguous to a non-native speaker. But it isn't. "Auf der Terrasse" implies that the speaker is referring to his/her patio (i.e. at the private residence).

Auf einer Terrasse would be different, that could also refer to an outdoors restaurant.

You asked how I knew you were not a native speaker? Well, you've just demonstrated it.

Would you care explaining to THIS native speaker of German how you reached that conclusion?

I would be interested in that explanation as well. One could argue that Terasse is a slightly dated term for a restaurant or café, that most are trying to avoid these days (think the days of "Auf der Terrasse nur Kännchen"), but otherwise nothing wrong with it.

My issue with this whole Terrasse discussion is that I would associate the term gemütlich more with a cosy, warm and quiet place in the fall or winter and not so much with something one would seek on a hot summer day. In the summer I would choose to use something along the lines of entspannt or relaxed.

How did I become the subject of this discussion? How is it even close to ontopic how or why I think someone is not a native speaker? How does any of this even remotely help the OP?

The native speakers have spoken. That ends the discussion as far as I am concerned.

Well, I am most certainly a native speaker like nearly everybody posting in this thread.

CDTraveller, if you read the posts on Erdbeerlounge and the posts of us Germans here (which actually both say fairly similar things), you should get a good idea about what the term means to us.