I had started a different thread but since it isn't SW Germany any longer and I'm reconsidering my original plans I would start a new one that is more applicable.

Currently I have flights into and out of Frankfurt in early December for a 12 day/11 night trip. We (just the two of us) do NOT plan to rent a car so this needs to be doable via trains.

I've been to Germany before and have seen Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Neuschwanstein, Baden-Baden and Heidelberg (although only for a day). I don't plan to revisit any of those unless my friend decides she needs to see them. Generally castles, churches, scenery, museums are at the top of my list. Checking out the Christmas markets at night time will also be nice (While I enjoy the nice weather in Arizona I miss the colder weather that makes things more Christmas like).

I'm thinking Munich for 3-4 days (definitely would like to see the Linderhof, I missed that on my last visit) and Salzburg for a couple of nights. Initially I was thinking of visiting Switzerland, possibly Lucerne but I'm not sure about the logistics of it (6 hrs from Munich to Bern and longer to Lucerne).

Since I'm arriving and leaving from Frankfurt I need to spend the last night in or near Frankfurt for my morning flight (I think it is 10am).

I suppose on the way to Munich we could spend a night in Numberg. Freiburg and Innsbruck are places that might be nice to see.

Anyone have any suggestions for a "loop" through Germany/Austria?
Maybe I should consider going from Frankfurt-Numberg-Regensburg-Salzburg-Munich-Freiburg-Heidelburg-Frankfurt? Or instead of starting my trip east or southeast I should start it southward and go counterclockwise?

I'm just having a tough time finding an efficient path. I think I'm missing something obvious.

Any helpful suggestions?

The christmas market in N�rnberg is famous, might be worth a visit!

Just seven different places for 11 nights? I'm sure we can recommend some more to squeeze in your schedule.

Some additional suggestions:

• In Frankfurt itself, you have lots of great museums (museum of modern art, Staedel museum, etc.) which can easily keep you busy for a day. And the christmas market is nice as well.
• In the vicinity of Frankfurt one could visit Mainz (40 minute train ride to the west), an old town with a large cathedral and a nice christmas market.
• Near Frankfurt is also the Saalburg, a large reconstructed castle of the Roman area, directly situated on the Limes, the old frontier between the Romans and the Germans 2000 years ago.
• If you go from Frankfurt to Nuremberg, definitely stop by in Wuerzburg to the the old castle (Feste) and the the more representational Residenz with lots of art from the Renaissance and Barocque era.

Right now I think the plan is:
Frankfurt->Rothenburg(2)->Munich(4)->Salzburg(2)->Nurnberg(2)->Frankfurt(1)
The number in parenthesis is the number of nights staying at each location. I figure we can take some day trips from Munich to visit various towns/castles/etc.

Anyone happen to be familiar with the Golden Leaf or the Europ�ischer hotels in Munich?

I'm looking for something reasonably price ($200ish) and in a nice location but not too far from the train station. Someone else (maybe on another web site) mentioned a couple of hotels but they seemed full or were not taking bookings online or in English.

In MUC, use Priceline. Usually can get Marriott or Rennisance (sp) for about $80 a night - espec. in winter. Not in town center, but with car - no problem. And near U Bahn stop.

I would say that these two things are almost mutually exclusive.

Is there any reason you want to stay near the train station? Esp. if you are going to be there for four days.

I'd say:
--do a BIG loop, and get to parts of Germany you haven't already seen.
--worry less about "efficient" paths, as trains go everywhere and the ICE is fast

I'd go to Mainz and follow the Rhein by Koblenz to Bonn and Cologne. The Cathedral in Cologne is a wonderful sight and the city is wonderful... like my second home. Couple days there. From Cologne to Berlin -- couple days there. Through Dresden to Prague, then Vienna. Close the loop through Salzburg, Munich, Stuttgart, FRA. Busy 11 days, but I'd love to do that trip.

Well this trip is over and done with. We left Phoenix on 2 Dec, connected to LH in IAH (Houston) in first class (FF miles ) and arrived in FRA on the 3rd. We took a train from FRA to Munich and it was packed. Not sure if it had something to do with the weather or if it is common to be that crowded. I stood until Augsburg (I think). My GF got a seat on an earlier stop.

We ended up doing Munich (3 nights), Salzburg (2), Rothenburg (2), Nurnberg(2), Wurzburg(1) and Frankfurt(1). We arrived early enough in Frankfurt that we hopped on a train and spent the afternoon seeing Heidelburg. My original itinerary was a bit more efficient (Roth-Muc-Salz-Nurn...) but getting rooms on the weekends for Rothenburg and Salzburg proved difficult so I had to move them to non-weekend dates.

We had a nice snow storm in Rothenburg but it made everything so calm, quiet and peaceful as we were exploring the town and walking along the wall. We would visit a coffee shop to warm up with some tea and pastries.

As we got back to Wurzburg and Frankfurt there was no snow on the ground but during the night (13 Dec) it snowed in Frankfurt several inches although it only caused an hour delay on the flight due to de-icing. Fortunately the flying time was quicker than normal (9:35) to Houston and we made up all the time. We were fortunately to miss some of the travel problems others encountered later in the month.

With no major travel issues, no sicknesses, etc. we had a great time. I'll have to write up a longer trip report and post a link to some photos for those curious.

Great you had a good time. The packed train on the 2nd was due to the weather. Germany was a mess the 1st. We had a lot of snow. We flew out to the US the 2nd and everything was still delayed for hours.

I know this was a Christmas trip so the circumstances are different but I'm doing a similar trip later in early May and I'm currently looking at:

Munich (5 nights, including our arrival night), then drive to
Salzburg (3 nights), then drive to
Mittenwald (2 nights), then drive to
Wuerzburg (4 nights), on the last day take an early ICE to FRA

1. Was there a reason you split Nuernberg and Wuerzburg instead of just staying in one spot and using it as a base to explore the other?

2. There won't be a Christmas market when I'm going, so is Rothenburg od T still worth a night? I noticed you gave yourself 2 nights there and here I thought one night was enough?

3. I just noticed that you didn't hire a car. How did you find the whole packing/unpacking every day or two and lugging the bags to the train stations?

Thanks.

1. Well we were making our way back to FRA for the return flight so Wurzburg is on the way back to FRA so we decided to stop there for a day.

2. I've only been there in the winter so I'm not sure what it is like in the spring and summer months. I've heard in the summer it can get extremely crowded. Personally I really enjoy the city so I would definitely go. I like the rooms at Gotisches-Haus (http://www.romanticroad.com/gotische...lish/hotel.php).

I've always taken trains and never had a car and getting to Rothenburg usually takes some time and at least 2 train changes so one night just doesn't leave much time when you are doing it via train IMO. Maybe if you can get there by noon and spend the day visiting it might be enough.

3. With train travel you need to pack light since some connections can be tight and you may need to move quickly. In my view you should only have one bag with wheels (preferably carry on size) and a backpack. More than that will make things hard.

In many towns (e.g., Rothenburg, Nurnberg) you don't want a car since parking is difficult. For me driving in a foreign country is stressful while I find the train travel fairly relaxing.

Personally I wouldn't stay 4 nights in Wurzburg. Just seemed like a smallish town. Munich and Salzburg are great. I personally really enjoy Rothenburg and Heidelburg is nice.

You might want to get to FRA the night before your flight out. Then you can either explore Frankfurt or take a fairly short train ride (roughly 45 minutes) to Heidelburg and spend a half day there. We actually stayed at the airport hotel (Sheraton) which was very convenient.

If you have any other questions let me know.

Ah, got it. I think we'll definitely go by the car route as we'll be gone for nearly a month, not to mention gifts for friends, etc that we'll be picking up.

I'm staying for 4 nights there but this is what it really looks like:

Day 1: late afternoon/early evening arrival; spend night relaxing
Day 2: drive out to nearby town that hosts an outlet mall
Day 3: return car; train for a day trip to Nuernberg
Day 4: actually look around Wuerzburg, visit Rezidenz
Day 5: early morning departure to FRA

I'll consider putting in Rothenburg back into the itinerary ... just need to figure out how to squeeze it in.

That is an option that I'm keeping open as well.

Thanks for the tips!

You can certainly squeeze in more stuff without it getting stressful.

On day 2, I guess that you're going to the Wertheim Village, which is nice, but certainly not an all-day activity. What you could do in the afternoon is visit the city of Wertheim and or the city of Miltenberg, which lies 29km to the west of Wertheim.

If you're only interested in fashion, there's also a smaller outlet in Muensterschwarzach (28km to the east of Wuerzburg), which hosts factory stores of s.Oliver and Rene Lezard. You could easily do that on the morning and then drive 80km to Bamberg, which is great for sightseeing.

On day 4 you should definitely visit the Residenz (as you already plan to do) but add the Fortress Marienberg as well.

If you need more tips on what to do in Wuerzburg and its vicinity (I grew up in that region) or in Frankfurt (I live there), just ask.

Thanks for the suggestions! I've incorporated them into my current itinerary and have started a new thread. I'd appreciate it if you can take a look--hopefully others can chime in as well!