Total farce by gate personnel at JFK
May 23, 2018, 1:41 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY GOLD, HH GOLD
Posts: 411
Total farce by gate personnel at JFK
Yesterday we we're on our way from from JFK to HEL with AY6 with Mrs. & Jr. aama. We had our upgrades waitlisted long time ago (We were #1 & #2 on the waitlist confirmed by gate personnel). It seemed that the J cabin would be full so the waitlist went on to the gate.
At the gate I was called to the desk and told that there's only one seat available in J and if one of us would like to upgrade. I told them no, only if both of us cleared and asked why don't they wait until the very last minute to see if all connections make it. The answer was that it was Finnair policy to do it in advance.
Well after about 30min later the boarding started and beep I got the lucky beep and the gate personnel told us that there was delayed connections and we were upgraded. Wuhuu lucky us!
Or not.
We boarded to our 1D & 1H seats and got our pre-departure drinks and settled in with the Jr. aama. Then all of a sudden when the boarding was pretty much complete, one of the gate personnel came to the J cabin and told the Chief Purser that one of the delayed connections made it and they need to move us back to our original seats. I was shocked by this because they should stick the decision that they made already.
Oh well we went to our original seats with loads of apologies from the Chief Purser and waited the flight to take off.
At this point they of course upgraded one person to our J seat because one was left vacant. Fair enough.
HOWEVER just before closing the door, the gate personnel came to upgrade totally another person from Y to J which meant that they eventually had 2 vacant seats in J which would have belonged to us. When I saw this I went straight ahead to talk to the Chief Purser who was clearly as puzzled as I was and told me that she was going to report this behaviour by gate personnel and once again apologized that they have no control over the situation.
I'm appalled by this farce and have sent an email to Platsku Desk and made a public Facebook post tagging Finnair.
I will see to the bottom of this.
At the gate I was called to the desk and told that there's only one seat available in J and if one of us would like to upgrade. I told them no, only if both of us cleared and asked why don't they wait until the very last minute to see if all connections make it. The answer was that it was Finnair policy to do it in advance.
Well after about 30min later the boarding started and beep I got the lucky beep and the gate personnel told us that there was delayed connections and we were upgraded. Wuhuu lucky us!
Or not.
We boarded to our 1D & 1H seats and got our pre-departure drinks and settled in with the Jr. aama. Then all of a sudden when the boarding was pretty much complete, one of the gate personnel came to the J cabin and told the Chief Purser that one of the delayed connections made it and they need to move us back to our original seats. I was shocked by this because they should stick the decision that they made already.
Oh well we went to our original seats with loads of apologies from the Chief Purser and waited the flight to take off.
At this point they of course upgraded one person to our J seat because one was left vacant. Fair enough.
HOWEVER just before closing the door, the gate personnel came to upgrade totally another person from Y to J which meant that they eventually had 2 vacant seats in J which would have belonged to us. When I saw this I went straight ahead to talk to the Chief Purser who was clearly as puzzled as I was and told me that she was going to report this behaviour by gate personnel and once again apologized that they have no control over the situation.
I'm appalled by this farce and have sent an email to Platsku Desk and made a public Facebook post tagging Finnair.
I will see to the bottom of this.
May 23, 2018, 7:46 am
#2
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,174
Sounds very disappointing!
The oddest thing in this story is that they processed the upgrades and then went 180° on the decision. If that first second upgrade seat was freed for you because of a late incoming, I'd assume the process would be to rebook that delayed person to a later flight. If that person miraculously makes it to the gate, they'd normally be denied boarding.
Maybe they processed the upgrades in error and that the delayed person really wasn't that much delayed. So that person turned up at the gate in time, with a valid ticket. I can see how it would be difficult for staff to deny boarding in such a case.
I do understand you had reasons to ask for "all or nothing" but I guess if you had accepted one upgrade initially, you would also have gotten the second eventually.
The oddest thing in this story is that they processed the upgrades and then went 180° on the decision. If that first second upgrade seat was freed for you because of a late incoming, I'd assume the process would be to rebook that delayed person to a later flight. If that person miraculously makes it to the gate, they'd normally be denied boarding.
Maybe they processed the upgrades in error and that the delayed person really wasn't that much delayed. So that person turned up at the gate in time, with a valid ticket. I can see how it would be difficult for staff to deny boarding in such a case.
I do understand you had reasons to ask for "all or nothing" but I guess if you had accepted one upgrade initially, you would also have gotten the second eventually.
May 23, 2018, 8:22 am
#3
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
A very odd experience, which makes me think longingly of the AY ground crew from years gone by. They were angels.
Up to the point where you were downgraded back to Y because the late connecting pax made it, I think everything was okay. They can't deny the J seats from someone who had a confirmed reservation and who showed up at the gate in time to board. And I think you accept that as well.
But after that, it was a complete mess. I do, however, understand the GA's viewpoint here – the intial reason why you were sent back to Y was legit, but if they were to reupgrade you+1 and consequently send the recently-upgraded J pax to Y only because another seat turned up free somewhere in the J cabin, it wouldn't have been very fair towards that person. He was next on the list and didn't have a "party of two" restriction.
Up to the point where you were downgraded back to Y because the late connecting pax made it, I think everything was okay. They can't deny the J seats from someone who had a confirmed reservation and who showed up at the gate in time to board. And I think you accept that as well.
But after that, it was a complete mess. I do, however, understand the GA's viewpoint here – the intial reason why you were sent back to Y was legit, but if they were to reupgrade you+1 and consequently send the recently-upgraded J pax to Y only because another seat turned up free somewhere in the J cabin, it wouldn't have been very fair towards that person. He was next on the list and didn't have a "party of two" restriction.
May 23, 2018, 8:28 am
#4
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 32
Sounds very disappointing!
Maybe they processed the upgrades in error and that the delayed person really wasn't that much delayed. So that person turned up at the gate in time, with a valid ticket. I can see how it would be difficult for staff to deny boarding in such a case.
Maybe they processed the upgrades in error and that the delayed person really wasn't that much delayed. So that person turned up at the gate in time, with a valid ticket. I can see how it would be difficult for staff to deny boarding in such a case.
Anyway bad handling moving people back and forth.
May 23, 2018, 8:33 am
#5
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
Which is why I never talk to those people, but walk briskly to my gate, instead. ^
May 23, 2018, 9:08 am
#6
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,413
May 23, 2018, 9:23 am
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HEL
Programs: AY GOLD, HH GOLD
Posts: 411
A very odd experience, which makes me think longingly of the AY ground crew from years gone by. They were angels.
Up to the point where you were downgraded back to Y because the late connecting pax made it, I think everything was okay. They can't deny the J seats from someone who had a confirmed reservation and who showed up at the gate in time to board. And I think you accept that as well.
But after that, it was a complete mess. I do, however, understand the GA's viewpoint here – the intial reason why you were sent back to Y was legit, but if they were to reupgrade you+1 and consequently send the recently-upgraded J pax to Y only because another seat turned up free somewhere in the J cabin, it wouldn't have been very fair towards that person. He was next on the list and didn't have a "party of two" restriction.
Up to the point where you were downgraded back to Y because the late connecting pax made it, I think everything was okay. They can't deny the J seats from someone who had a confirmed reservation and who showed up at the gate in time to board. And I think you accept that as well.
But after that, it was a complete mess. I do, however, understand the GA's viewpoint here – the intial reason why you were sent back to Y was legit, but if they were to reupgrade you+1 and consequently send the recently-upgraded J pax to Y only because another seat turned up free somewhere in the J cabin, it wouldn't have been very fair towards that person. He was next on the list and didn't have a "party of two" restriction.
For starters, they should process all upgrades at the same time and make the decision final. This was basically Dr. Dao/United, but not with standby/overbooking, but waitlist/upgrade. And I can promise you if I were alone, I wouldn't move an inch from the seat. Once you make a decision you can't reverse it. They should've handled the connecting pax accordingly and place him on the next available flight to HEL in J, even if it would've meant more connections or even tomorrow's AY6.
One more thing to add to this, I'm pretty sure I heard the gate agent saying the word "staff" to the chief purser, which would mean an ID ticket or other. If that was the case I'm even more appalled.
May 23, 2018, 9:30 am
#9
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
AY should have stuck to its process in the first place.
When OP was called to the desk, he should either have accepted the single upgrade or not. At that point, AY would have asked #4 on the list and presumably upgraded him.
OP, spouse, and Jr. would have taken their seats in Y and been called forward had 3 seats opened (or not).
While this was not handled well, it goes directly into the "no good deed goes unpunished" file and if the CP did report the problems, presumably gate staff will have learned their lesson and the next time they call some forward, will either upgrade or not on the spot and, if not, will move down the list.
When OP was called to the desk, he should either have accepted the single upgrade or not. At that point, AY would have asked #4 on the list and presumably upgraded him.
OP, spouse, and Jr. would have taken their seats in Y and been called forward had 3 seats opened (or not).
While this was not handled well, it goes directly into the "no good deed goes unpunished" file and if the CP did report the problems, presumably gate staff will have learned their lesson and the next time they call some forward, will either upgrade or not on the spot and, if not, will move down the list.
May 23, 2018, 9:41 am
#10
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,413
AY should have stuck to its process in the first place.
When OP was called to the desk, he should either have accepted the single upgrade or not. At that point, AY would have asked #4 on the list and presumably upgraded him.
OP, spouse, and Jr. would have taken their seats in Y and been called forward had 3 seats opened (or not).
While this was not handled well, it goes directly into the "no good deed goes unpunished" file and if the CP did report the problems, presumably gate staff will have learned their lesson and the next time they call some forward, will either upgrade or not on the spot and, if not, will move down the list.
When OP was called to the desk, he should either have accepted the single upgrade or not. At that point, AY would have asked #4 on the list and presumably upgraded him.
OP, spouse, and Jr. would have taken their seats in Y and been called forward had 3 seats opened (or not).
While this was not handled well, it goes directly into the "no good deed goes unpunished" file and if the CP did report the problems, presumably gate staff will have learned their lesson and the next time they call some forward, will either upgrade or not on the spot and, if not, will move down the list.
May 23, 2018, 10:06 am
#12
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 948
AY should have stuck to its process in the first place.
When OP was called to the desk, he should either have accepted the single upgrade or not. At that point, AY would have asked #4 on the list and presumably upgraded him.
OP, spouse, and Jr. would have taken their seats in Y and been called forward had 3 seats opened (or not).
While this was not handled well, it goes directly into the "no good deed goes unpunished" file and if the CP did report the problems, presumably gate staff will have learned their lesson and the next time they call some forward, will either upgrade or not on the spot and, if not, will move down the list.
When OP was called to the desk, he should either have accepted the single upgrade or not. At that point, AY would have asked #4 on the list and presumably upgraded him.
OP, spouse, and Jr. would have taken their seats in Y and been called forward had 3 seats opened (or not).
While this was not handled well, it goes directly into the "no good deed goes unpunished" file and if the CP did report the problems, presumably gate staff will have learned their lesson and the next time they call some forward, will either upgrade or not on the spot and, if not, will move down the list.
Unrealistic expectations are my take on this thread - and if you'd have prefered to fly C you could've simply booked it. You should not complain that you got exactly what you booked and paid for.
May 23, 2018, 10:27 am
#13
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
If Jr. is a lap child as OP ultimately posts, it does not change the underlying issue. He needed 2 rather than 3 seats, but there was only 1.
AY ought to have offered him the 1 or passed him (and presumably spouse as well) and moved on to #3 on the list.
AY ought to have offered him the 1 or passed him (and presumably spouse as well) and moved on to #3 on the list.
May 23, 2018, 10:57 am
#14
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
To recap:
AY6 is J1.
Upgrade waiting list includes pax A(ama), B, C and D.
GA calls pax A to the podium and tells him there’s J1. Pax A says he’s travelling together with pax B, and only wants an upgrade if pax B can get one, too. GA upgrades no-one.
Later, GA believes that connecting pax E will not make the flight so the flight is basically J2 at this point. Furthermore, there’s a pax F that the GA expects will make the flight. GA upgrades pax A and B. This is the first mistake the GA makes – she upgrades A and B wrongly believing that E won’t board the flight.
E seems to be a quick runner so contrary to what the GA thought, he turns up at the gate in time for boarding. GA boards pax E, and is forced to bump A back to Y. B gets bumped too, since A and B do not want to travel in different cabins. This, not surprisingly, leaves a really bad taste in A’s and B’s mouths. The flight is back to J1, and GA upgrades pax C to that seat while still waiting for pax F, which is her second mistake.
Just before they close the door, GA realises that pax F didn’t make it, after all, so she’s back to J1 at this point. She upgrades pax D. The door closes and the flight takes off with C and D in J, A and B in Y, E in J and F God knows where.
Did I get this right?
AY6 is J1.
Upgrade waiting list includes pax A(ama), B, C and D.
GA calls pax A to the podium and tells him there’s J1. Pax A says he’s travelling together with pax B, and only wants an upgrade if pax B can get one, too. GA upgrades no-one.
Later, GA believes that connecting pax E will not make the flight so the flight is basically J2 at this point. Furthermore, there’s a pax F that the GA expects will make the flight. GA upgrades pax A and B. This is the first mistake the GA makes – she upgrades A and B wrongly believing that E won’t board the flight.
E seems to be a quick runner so contrary to what the GA thought, he turns up at the gate in time for boarding. GA boards pax E, and is forced to bump A back to Y. B gets bumped too, since A and B do not want to travel in different cabins. This, not surprisingly, leaves a really bad taste in A’s and B’s mouths. The flight is back to J1, and GA upgrades pax C to that seat while still waiting for pax F, which is her second mistake.
Just before they close the door, GA realises that pax F didn’t make it, after all, so she’s back to J1 at this point. She upgrades pax D. The door closes and the flight takes off with C and D in J, A and B in Y, E in J and F God knows where.
Did I get this right?
May 23, 2018, 11:15 am
#15
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
Now, if I got this right,
1) I do very much understand Aama's frustration and I do believe that due to GA's multiple false assumptions, those J seats got filled with the wrong pax.
2) When pax E turned up at the gate, GA had no choice but to let him board. Not too long ago, we had a discussion here about a similar case at HEL where AY expected someone not to make their connection, and when this person joined the boarding queue at the gate, the GA basically said something like "we assumed you wouldn't make it", gave the pax a new BP for a later flight and closed the case. Denied boarding. General opinion here was that GA did the wrong thing and that the person should have been allowed to board and that any standby pax should have been bumped instead (since the flight was overbooked). Contrary to how I read the first post, OP seems to think that pax E should have been denied boarding because A and B had gotten their upgrades. Here, I disagree with the OP. E was in time for boarding, no reason not to let him board (even if GA was stupid enough to assume otherwise).
3) Furthermore, GA falsely assumed that pax F will make the flight. Here, GA should have waited before upgrading pax C. She could very well have waited until the door closes and seconds before, told the chief of cabin to upgrade A and B. But instead, she upgraded pax C immediately. The OP seems to approve of this, having believed that the flight was at J1 at that point. However, when it turns out that pax F didn’t make it, the OP seems to expect that C is bumped back to Y so A and B could be upgraded. If I were pax C, I wouldn’t be very happy about this, but I do understand the OP’s view here. I can’t really make up my mind about this – when it turns out that F doesn’t make it, should they bump C (who had done mothing wrong) or upgrade D? Of course, without all the false assumptions from the GA, this situation wouldn’t have occured.
I do feel for you, Aama. Had I been sitting in 1D only to be told to move back to Y, I would have been a very unhappy camper at that point. If I were AY CS, I would be apologetic about all the mess and offer a €100 voucher each for the inconvenience to A and B, even though strictly speaking there’s no entitlement to it. Voucher/points upgrades do not fall under EC261 (award flights do, OTOH.)
1) I do very much understand Aama's frustration and I do believe that due to GA's multiple false assumptions, those J seats got filled with the wrong pax.
2) When pax E turned up at the gate, GA had no choice but to let him board. Not too long ago, we had a discussion here about a similar case at HEL where AY expected someone not to make their connection, and when this person joined the boarding queue at the gate, the GA basically said something like "we assumed you wouldn't make it", gave the pax a new BP for a later flight and closed the case. Denied boarding. General opinion here was that GA did the wrong thing and that the person should have been allowed to board and that any standby pax should have been bumped instead (since the flight was overbooked). Contrary to how I read the first post, OP seems to think that pax E should have been denied boarding because A and B had gotten their upgrades. Here, I disagree with the OP. E was in time for boarding, no reason not to let him board (even if GA was stupid enough to assume otherwise).
3) Furthermore, GA falsely assumed that pax F will make the flight. Here, GA should have waited before upgrading pax C. She could very well have waited until the door closes and seconds before, told the chief of cabin to upgrade A and B. But instead, she upgraded pax C immediately. The OP seems to approve of this, having believed that the flight was at J1 at that point. However, when it turns out that pax F didn’t make it, the OP seems to expect that C is bumped back to Y so A and B could be upgraded. If I were pax C, I wouldn’t be very happy about this, but I do understand the OP’s view here. I can’t really make up my mind about this – when it turns out that F doesn’t make it, should they bump C (who had done mothing wrong) or upgrade D? Of course, without all the false assumptions from the GA, this situation wouldn’t have occured.
I do feel for you, Aama. Had I been sitting in 1D only to be told to move back to Y, I would have been a very unhappy camper at that point. If I were AY CS, I would be apologetic about all the mess and offer a €100 voucher each for the inconvenience to A and B, even though strictly speaking there’s no entitlement to it. Voucher/points upgrades do not fall under EC261 (award flights do, OTOH.)