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Old Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: ffay005
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.

Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
  • Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
  • Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
  • Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
  • Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
  • Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
  • Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
  • Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
  • McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
  • Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
  • Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
  • Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
  • Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
  • van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
  • Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
  • Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
  • Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
  • Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
  • Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
  • Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
  • Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
  • Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
  • CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.

European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.

When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time

Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.

Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.

Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.

Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted

Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted

Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!

Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax

Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted

Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)

Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??

Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??

?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation

?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher

Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher

Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted

?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted

Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info

Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)

???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.

Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)

Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.

Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.

May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.

Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).

Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)

List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf

European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf

If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf

To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.

You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
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Finnair and EC 261 compensation

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Old Jul 10, 2022, 4:20 am
  #1231  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,753
Thanks. I'm surprised if #1 is a 'no'. It would seem like a sensible solution to abort the trip and buy a separate HEL-CPH on another carrier, leaving sooner, and just reimburse the original HEL-CPH portion.
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Old Jul 27, 2022, 9:12 am
  #1232  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 231
Asked compensation for a cancelled tmp flight. Now Finnair only offers half the amount because the flight hel-xxx was made by using bus. Is this correct, because bus is not comparable and left more than two hours before scheduled departure.
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Old Jul 27, 2022, 11:40 am
  #1233  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: C2
Programs: AY ex-Lumo, TK Elite, BT VIP, ITA Executive
Posts: 1,157
If you go strictly by the book, rerouting you by another mode of transport does not satisfy the eligibility to cut your compensation in half.
I believe there was somewhere a requirement for departure window of the new routing, but in the main document, EC261 only talks about scheduled arrival time.
Anyway, bus ride is not a flight, so full compensation should be due.

Article 7

Right to compensation

1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall receive compensation amounting to:

(a) EUR 250 for all flights of 1500 kilometres or less;

(b) EUR 400 for all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres, and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres;

(c) EUR 600 for all flights not falling under (a) or (b).

In determining the distance, the basis shall be the last destination at which the denial of boarding or cancellation will delay the passenger's arrival after the scheduled time.

2. When passengers are offered re-routing to their final destination on an alternative flight pursuant to Article 8, the arrival time of which does not exceed the scheduled arrival time of the flight originally booked

(a) by two hours, in respect of all flights of 1500 kilometres or less; or

(b) by three hours, in respect of all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres; or

(c) by four hours, in respect of all flights not falling under (a) or (b),

the operating air carrier may reduce the compensation provided for in paragraph 1 by 50 %
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on22cz is offline  
Old Aug 2, 2022, 2:56 pm
  #1234  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 231
Was annoyed by the response so also claimed another hel-tmp cancellation with bus replacement.

"The EU standard compensation will not be paid in this case because the delay to the final destination was less than three hours."

respect for Finnair
casper79 is offline  
Old Aug 2, 2022, 7:48 pm
  #1235  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: try to stay home
Programs: AY, M&M, BAEC ...and don t care of status anymore
Posts: 2,042
Is there a place where you can find reliable data for the distances? My delayed flight is somewhere in the Region of 1500km.
Ed Size is offline  
Old Aug 2, 2022, 7:55 pm
  #1236  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: try to stay home
Programs: AY, M&M, BAEC ...and don t care of status anymore
Posts: 2,042
Originally Posted by ffay005
What is your take on the following:

Say a pax has a ticket for DXB-HEL-CPH. The first flight is delayed 60 min. Pax misses connection to CPH and is rebooked on another flight that would arrive five hours after the original flight. If pax refuses the rebooking and aborts the trip at HEL, is he
1) entitled to a refund for the HEL-CPH portion?
2) entitled to EC261 delay compensation of 600 EUR?

My understanding is that #1 would be a definite 'yes', but for #2 I'm not sure. If you abort the trip, then you never arrive at CPH five hours late. Your trip ends at HEL, 60 min late.
Your flight is your journey so its #2 in most cases.

You would not get any compensation If your DXB-HEL Part is delayed for more then 3 hours as long as you arrive in time in CPH.
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Old Aug 2, 2022, 7:59 pm
  #1237  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
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Posts: 8,753
Originally Posted by Ed Size
Is there a place where you can find reliable data for the distances? My delayed flight is somewhere in the Region of 1500km.
Great Circle Mapper is very accurate
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Old Aug 2, 2022, 11:54 pm
  #1238  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: try to stay home
Programs: AY, M&M, BAEC ...and don t care of status anymore
Posts: 2,042
So I try to file my claim, but which is "my flight" and flight number, if I m stranded in HEL and missed my connection? Is it the number of the delayed flight or the number of the missed flight?
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Old Aug 3, 2022, 2:00 am
  #1239  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: C2
Programs: AY ex-Lumo, TK Elite, BT VIP, ITA Executive
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Originally Posted by casper79
Was annoyed by the response so also claimed another hel-tmp cancellation with bus replacement.

"The EU standard compensation will not be paid in this case because the delay to the final destination was less than three hours."

respect for Finnair
What is this? Once there is a cancellation it doesn't really make the delay time relevant, except for the possible halving in certain cases. Are they out of their mind or just scamming you around?
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Old Aug 4, 2022, 11:11 am
  #1240  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Programs: AY+ Plat, A3*G
Posts: 672
If your flight is cancelled is it a normal business model for AY to only offer re-routing on +-3 days on original travel dates? I have another cancellation for next week and I would happily change my flights to mid-Sept when I have a need to visit this destination again but they say no, if you want to change it over+-3 days from original dates you have to pay the fare difference (I have Ö class ticket so in this case it's still +100€ pp.). So the option is refund of rebook within this window.

Now I'm going to change to a flight that has Y1 as availability + a definate EC 261 claim coming. What a great business model from economics side..
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Old Aug 4, 2022, 1:49 pm
  #1241  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Finland
Programs: BA gold, OWE
Posts: 373
Originally Posted by Furry
I have another cancellation for next week and I would happily change my flights to mid-Sept when I have a need to visit this destination again but they say no, if you want to change it over+-3 days from original dates you have to pay the fare differenc
EC261 is quite clear:
  1. the reimbursement of your ticket and, if you have a connecting flight, a return flight to the airport of departure at the earliest opportunity
  2. re-routing to your final destination at the earliest opportunity or,
  3. re-routing at a later date at your convenience under comparable transport conditions, subject to the availability of seats.
You can pick one.
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temppa is offline  
Old Aug 4, 2022, 2:18 pm
  #1242  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,753
There is no ±3 day rule. If AY suggests that, it is against EC261. Shame on them. You can choose any date you want, no fare difference should apply.
ffay005 is offline  
Old Aug 5, 2022, 12:34 am
  #1243  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Programs: AY+ Plat, A3*G
Posts: 672
Originally Posted by ffay005
There is no ±3 day rule. If AY suggests that, it is against EC261. Shame on them. You can choose any date you want, no fare difference should apply.
They seem to have. I called in again this morning to told them that the agent yesterday tricked me into accepting flights only within +-3 period and if I want to change it to anywhere else it can be done but change fee + fare difference. Agent said that this is the rule, but she would check with supervisor and call back. Called back in 30min and same result. Asked this statement to be sent by email, we'll see if that ever arrives.

And now that I have accepted the flight change (as mislead/purely lied by CS chat rep as only option vs. refund) I no longer have right to full refund if I would like. So this is where EC 261 is enforced

Luckily I saved the transcript of the chat yesterday when I did the change. What a complete BS. I have a Ö class ticket from flash sale upgraded by vouchers that have already expired so I don't want a refund - I want to fly.

Funniest thing is that I still haven't been informed officially by AY about the flight change. Noticed it in the App earlier this week by accident (return was postponed by +1day and the outbound flight was changed to 5 hour connection at HEL). Without knowledge of the "game" I wouldn't even know which flight has been changed / cancelled.
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Old Aug 5, 2022, 5:52 am
  #1244  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: C2
Programs: AY ex-Lumo, TK Elite, BT VIP, ITA Executive
Posts: 1,157
Originally Posted by Furry
And now that I have accepted the flight change (as mislead/purely lied by CS chat rep as only option vs. refund) I no longer have right to full refund if I would like. So this is where EC 261 is enforced
I'm not totally sure about this but look for EC261 guidelines and mentioned cases. I believe there was one where misleading information led to granting passenger the right to claim damage caused (for example, if you book a ticket for later date, you'd be eligible for reimbursement). It's good that you have the chat saved.
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Old Aug 6, 2022, 1:41 pm
  #1245  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Programs: AY+ Plat, A3*G
Posts: 672
Originally Posted by ffay005
There is no ±3 day rule. If AY suggests that, it is against EC261. Shame on them. You can choose any date you want, no fare difference should apply.
They even have their "own rule" on their website:

https://www.finnair.com/fi-en/flight...-of-disruption

In case of cancellation, you normally have three options

  • You can change your travel date with some days from the original date by contacting our Customer Care.
  • We will re-route you to your destination as soon as possible. As availability of alternative flights is sometime limited, re-routing may take some time. After we’ve re-routed your journey, you can find your updated travel plan via Manage booking or the Finnair app. If you wish to make changes to your re-routing, you can contact our Customer Care.
  • If changing the flight date or re-routing is not suitable for your travel plan, you can choose not to travel and apply for a full refund for your unused flight ticket.
some days = +-2 days

Where I can info when a certain flight was cancelled? All flightstats sites etc. seem to have only historical data.
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