Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
Last edit by: ffay005
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.
Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.
When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time
Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.
Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.
Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.
Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted
Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted
Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!
Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax
Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted
Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)
Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??
Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??
?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation
?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher
Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher
Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted
?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted
Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info
Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)
???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.
Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)
Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.
Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.
May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.
Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).
Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)
List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf
If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf
To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.
You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.
Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
- Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
- Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
- Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
- Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
- Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
- Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
- Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
- McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
- Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
- Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
- Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
- Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
- van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
- Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
- Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
- Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
- Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
- Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
- Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
- Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
- Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
- CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.
European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.
When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time
Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.
Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.
Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.
Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted
Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted
Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!
Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax
Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted
Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)
Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??
Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??
?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation
?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher
Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher
Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted
?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted
Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info
Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)
???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.
Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)
Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.
Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.
May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.
Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).
Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)
List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf
If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf
To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.
You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
Finnair and EC 261 compensation
Feb 16, 2022, 10:44 am
#1186
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
When the plane lands at HEL, home airport, the claim becomes invalid.
For example, if HEL-HKT is delayed because of weather, that flight as well as HKT-HEL are “extraordinary”. But whichever flight that same plane takes from HEL after this will not count.
So you are due EC261. However, AY routinely ignores the claims and might not follow KRIL recommendations.
You should probably proceed in a UK small claims court.
For example, if HEL-HKT is delayed because of weather, that flight as well as HKT-HEL are “extraordinary”. But whichever flight that same plane takes from HEL after this will not count.
So you are due EC261. However, AY routinely ignores the claims and might not follow KRIL recommendations.
You should probably proceed in a UK small claims court.
Mar 23, 2022, 5:03 am
#1188
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 231
Flight the 4th of January to Helsinki. Flight was cancelled 26h before flight departure. Asking compensation, Finnair stated extraordinary circumstances (freezing rain). The actual weather 4th of January was dry (both at scheduled departure in Helsinki as the scheduled arrival back in Helsinki).
In my understanding Finnair is not correct
- The airport did not close, they only warned that the number of landings allowed might be reduced. And the evening bank is only 1h, so they could land a little bit after 11 if there were restrictions
- The long time before arrival the flight was cancelled, this indicates to me opportunism.
https://www.finavia.fi/en/newsroom/2...affic-helsinki
Guess I will try the consumer board.
In my understanding Finnair is not correct
- The airport did not close, they only warned that the number of landings allowed might be reduced. And the evening bank is only 1h, so they could land a little bit after 11 if there were restrictions
- The long time before arrival the flight was cancelled, this indicates to me opportunism.
https://www.finavia.fi/en/newsroom/2...affic-helsinki
Guess I will try the consumer board.
Mar 23, 2022, 8:36 am
#1189
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
It will make an interesting case. If the weather service predicts difficult weather, can the airline proactively cancel flights based on that, and not actual weather? I would say they cannot. Those cancellations were probably made purely from a commercial perspective.
Apr 13, 2022, 5:50 am
#1190
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: London
Programs: BA
Posts: 15
I’ve tried searching through a few threads but can’t find an answer so hoping the collective wisdom can help.
I had a flight with AY from ARN-BKK scheduled for 13th January which was cancelled on 7th January, I was moved to a flight on 10th January which was then cancelled on 8th January. The flights operated as cargo only and no alternative options were offered. I have received a refund of the booking and completed the EU261 web form.
It is now 12 weeks on and I have not had a response. The case number is shown as ‘waiting for handling’.
Would anyone have any insight as to how to progress this claim please? I’ve read about KRIL, my flight was due to depart Sweden rather than Finland so not sure if this is the best way to progress.
thanks for your help.
I had a flight with AY from ARN-BKK scheduled for 13th January which was cancelled on 7th January, I was moved to a flight on 10th January which was then cancelled on 8th January. The flights operated as cargo only and no alternative options were offered. I have received a refund of the booking and completed the EU261 web form.
It is now 12 weeks on and I have not had a response. The case number is shown as ‘waiting for handling’.
Would anyone have any insight as to how to progress this claim please? I’ve read about KRIL, my flight was due to depart Sweden rather than Finland so not sure if this is the best way to progress.
thanks for your help.
Apr 13, 2022, 6:18 am
#1191
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Seat 1L these days :)
Programs: AF Platinum/AY LUMO/SK EBG/baEC S/HYATT Globalist/MR LTP/A3 *G/HH Dia/IHG plat
Posts: 7,958
I’ve tried searching through a few threads but can’t find an answer so hoping the collective wisdom can help.
I had a flight with AY from ARN-BKK scheduled for 13th January which was cancelled on 7th January, I was moved to a flight on 10th January which was then cancelled on 8th January. The flights operated as cargo only and no alternative options were offered. I have received a refund of the booking and completed the EU261 web form.
It is now 12 weeks on and I have not had a response. The case number is shown as ‘waiting for handling’.
Would anyone have any insight as to how to progress this claim please? I’ve read about KRIL, my flight was due to depart Sweden rather than Finland so not sure if this is the best way to progress.
thanks for your help.
I had a flight with AY from ARN-BKK scheduled for 13th January which was cancelled on 7th January, I was moved to a flight on 10th January which was then cancelled on 8th January. The flights operated as cargo only and no alternative options were offered. I have received a refund of the booking and completed the EU261 web form.
It is now 12 weeks on and I have not had a response. The case number is shown as ‘waiting for handling’.
Would anyone have any insight as to how to progress this claim please? I’ve read about KRIL, my flight was due to depart Sweden rather than Finland so not sure if this is the best way to progress.
thanks for your help.
What part are you making a claim about?
did they not offer you a flight via HEL or did you just decide to cancel?
Apr 13, 2022, 6:47 am
#1192
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: London
Programs: BA
Posts: 15
The flight was cancelled within 7 days so is eligible under EU261 I believe.
I didn’t elaborate in my post however using MMB the options I was offered were a direct flight on Monday 20th January or via HEL on Sunday 19th or Tuesday 21st.
I have a screenshots of this and of phone calls/web chats where I attempted to change the flights to no avail. As I needed to still fly I cancelled online and booked a redemption with QR.
I didn’t elaborate in my post however using MMB the options I was offered were a direct flight on Monday 20th January or via HEL on Sunday 19th or Tuesday 21st.
I have a screenshots of this and of phone calls/web chats where I attempted to change the flights to no avail. As I needed to still fly I cancelled online and booked a redemption with QR.
Apr 13, 2022, 1:12 pm
#1193
Join Date: Aug 2019
Programs: AY+ Lumo, HH Diamond
Posts: 503
I have it on writing that Finnair directly refuses to follow EC261/2004. Several occasions.
They intentionally do not care about it. They’re on the KRIL blacklist for flouting their decisions and contempt for the process.
It’s outrageous, of course, but until they (and the industry) get slapped with well-deserved fines nothing will change.
They intentionally do not care about it. They’re on the KRIL blacklist for flouting their decisions and contempt for the process.
It’s outrageous, of course, but until they (and the industry) get slapped with well-deserved fines nothing will change.
Apr 14, 2022, 2:38 pm
#1194
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
If the airline refuses to offer the rebooking option, I think the idea is that you should keep the original ticket as-is and book a new ticket and seek reimbursement for the new ticket due to failure to offer rebooking. It could prove to be an obstacle for AY to refund your ticket as you used frequent flyer points to pay for the ticket if you didn't use AY+ points.
Apr 19, 2022, 11:28 am
#1195
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: London
Programs: BA
Posts: 15
For flights from Sweden, you can use ARN, the Swedish version of KRIL.
If the airline refuses to offer the rebooking option, I think the idea is that you should keep the original ticket as-is and book a new ticket and seek reimbursement for the new ticket due to failure to offer rebooking. It could prove to be an obstacle for AY to refund your ticket as you used frequent flyer points to pay for the ticket if you didn't use AY+ points.
If the airline refuses to offer the rebooking option, I think the idea is that you should keep the original ticket as-is and book a new ticket and seek reimbursement for the new ticket due to failure to offer rebooking. It could prove to be an obstacle for AY to refund your ticket as you used frequent flyer points to pay for the ticket if you didn't use AY+ points.
That’s good to know. In hindsight I wouldn’t have cancelled the ticket, although the most important thing was to make it to BKK, thanks for your help.
Apr 21, 2022, 12:41 am
#1196
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
I'm experiencing something all new here, reported by others before me. I have two award bookings to DXB this winter. Now AY cancelled their flights and opened new ones with different schedules (and different flight numbers, so it is indeed a cancellation, not just a schedule change). They moved me to new flights but with bad dates, so I want to change dates. My new preferred dates are around the ones I had originally booked, so it is a matter of a few days only. But even if it is their cancellation, they don't allow the dates as there is no U availability.
Would anyone know how to interpret EC261 "(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats."? Does this require U availability or just any seat? Can I appeal to EC261 and demand they open up a seat for me, as they do have seats for sale?
Would anyone know how to interpret EC261 "(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats."? Does this require U availability or just any seat? Can I appeal to EC261 and demand they open up a seat for me, as they do have seats for sale?
Apr 21, 2022, 2:44 am
#1197
Join Date: Aug 2019
Programs: AY+ Lumo, HH Diamond
Posts: 503
Even if there's seats, AY in the past at least has flatly refused to follow this part of EC261 (and that was just a regular revenue booking with no complications from being U). If they decide to follow EC261 in your case consider yourself a lucky exception.
The only option remaining is for the pax to book a new connection on their own, retain the original AY ticket which will become a no-show, and then claim for reimbursement of the new ticket from AY later by taking them to court.
Kind of makes me question all the talk about e.g. QR or Middle-Eastern airlines being lovely in the air but awful on the ground. I've never had issues with QR reimbursement, re-routing, or any aspect of ground service including calling their CS which always has been reachable and knowledgeable. It's AY that starts to deserve the reputation of awful on the ground.
The only option remaining is for the pax to book a new connection on their own, retain the original AY ticket which will become a no-show, and then claim for reimbursement of the new ticket from AY later by taking them to court.
Kind of makes me question all the talk about e.g. QR or Middle-Eastern airlines being lovely in the air but awful on the ground. I've never had issues with QR reimbursement, re-routing, or any aspect of ground service including calling their CS which always has been reachable and knowledgeable. It's AY that starts to deserve the reputation of awful on the ground.
Apr 21, 2022, 4:14 am
#1198
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,750
Not what I wanted to hear, but thanks! They've really become that stingy even with a paid reservation? My God.
Latest episode: for one of my two DXB bookings, I found availability online for acceptable dates. Not the ones I wanted, but semi-good. I sent WhatsApp and asked to change the dates. Janica comes back letting me know there is no availability. I tell her to hang on, make a new booking for the dates I wanted and then give her the new booking reference so she can assign seats. And tell her to cancel and refund the old booking (losing 2 EUR in the process, as the taxes are higher now
).
How is it possible that WhatsApp sees different availability from the one that's bookable online? I was pretty sure the seat I wanted was gone and I would get an error message when hitting "pay", but no, I have the eticket in my inbox now.
Latest episode: for one of my two DXB bookings, I found availability online for acceptable dates. Not the ones I wanted, but semi-good. I sent WhatsApp and asked to change the dates. Janica comes back letting me know there is no availability. I tell her to hang on, make a new booking for the dates I wanted and then give her the new booking reference so she can assign seats. And tell her to cancel and refund the old booking (losing 2 EUR in the process, as the taxes are higher now
).How is it possible that WhatsApp sees different availability from the one that's bookable online? I was pretty sure the seat I wanted was gone and I would get an error message when hitting "pay", but no, I have the eticket in my inbox now.
Apr 21, 2022, 8:58 am
#1199
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: C2
Programs: AY ex-Lumo, TK Elite, BT VIP, ITA Executive
Posts: 1,157
Would anyone know how to interpret EC261 "(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats."? Does this require U availability or just any seat? Can I appeal to EC261 and demand they open up a seat for me, as they do have seats for sale?
EC261 has no exceptions for award bookings.
Summary: You cannot force them to offload someone from the cabin but you can force them to reissue your ticket as long as they have seats on sale.
Apr 21, 2022, 11:06 am
#1200
Join Date: Aug 2019
Programs: AY+ Lumo, HH Diamond
Posts: 503
This means any seat in the same class of travel (not a booking class). I was once advised by ARN to collect a proof in case I would have decided to purchase a new ticket and then claim the damage (screenshot would be enough).
EC261 has no exceptions for award bookings.
Summary: You cannot force them to offload someone from the cabin but you can force them to reissue your ticket as long as they have seats on sale.
EC261 has no exceptions for award bookings.
Summary: You cannot force them to offload someone from the cabin but you can force them to reissue your ticket as long as they have seats on sale.