Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
Last edit by: ffay005
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.
Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.
When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time
Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.
Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.
Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.
Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted
Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted
Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!
Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax
Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted
Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)
Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??
Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??
?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation
?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher
Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher
Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted
?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted
Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info
Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)
???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.
Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)
Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.
Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.
May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.
Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).
Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)
List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf
If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf
To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.
You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.
Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
- Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
- Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
- Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
- Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
- Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
- Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
- Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
- McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
- Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
- Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
- Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
- Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
- van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
- Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
- Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
- Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
- Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
- Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
- Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
- Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
- Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
- CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.
European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.
When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time
Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.
Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.
Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.
Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted
Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted
Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!
Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax
Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted
Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)
Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??
Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??
?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation
?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher
Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher
Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted
?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted
Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info
Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)
???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.
Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)
Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.
Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.
Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.
May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.
Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).
Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)
List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf
If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf
To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.
You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
Finnair and EC 261 compensation
Jul 11, 2018, 2:55 pm
#616
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,749
A friend of mine was to fly HEL-HKG-AKL. Well, HEL-HKG got postponed to the following morning (what a surprise!) and he was rerouted HEL-DOH-AKL. He ended up arriving a whopping 12 hours early at AKL. I gave him the following advice, but I'm not really sure it was correct:
- no compensation due because he did not arrive late at the final destination
- duty of care applies in all cases, so AY should stand for the extra hotel night as well as reasonable meal costs (flight arrived @AKL 4 am)
Any comments?
- no compensation due because he did not arrive late at the final destination
- duty of care applies in all cases, so AY should stand for the extra hotel night as well as reasonable meal costs (flight arrived @AKL 4 am)
Any comments?
Jul 11, 2018, 3:03 pm
#617
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Melbourne
Programs: ►QFWP/LTG►VA WP►HyattExpl.►HiltonGold►ALL Silver
Posts: 21,994
First point: Compensation may be due if the DOH flight departed HEL more than one hour earlier than the originally scheduled HEL-HKG, but at 50% as the friend did not arrive more than 2 hours late.
Second Point: YMMV - Certainly in for significantly delayed arrival, but nothing for cancellations resulting in early arrival. It is discussed here on the BA board in relation to the regulation (Q2): https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29235716-post2.html
Second Point: YMMV - Certainly in for significantly delayed arrival, but nothing for cancellations resulting in early arrival. It is discussed here on the BA board in relation to the regulation (Q2): https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29235716-post2.html
Last edited by serfty; Jul 11, 2018 at 3:30 pm
Jul 12, 2018, 1:30 am
#618
Join Date: Nov 2009
Programs: qff, asia miles, amex, kvs
Posts: 50
For info,
Finnair responded after 5 weeks accepting the liability 600 euro for the delay.
I pressed them for a response to the reimbursement claim as it had been ignored but also offered to withdraw the claim for reimbursement for 50 euro per person without prejudice. (Ostensibly to cover our costs for the stopover that were not refundable). This was accepted by Finnair.
For the record I think the regulation is fairly clear as to the entitlement however it was not morally justifiable and I consider I was fortunate that the regulation exists to provide compensation at all. I think that Finnair may have considered that was the case otherwise I cannot see why they would have accepted without prejudice or not.
The total 650 euro pp.
Finnair responded after 5 weeks accepting the liability 600 euro for the delay.
I pressed them for a response to the reimbursement claim as it had been ignored but also offered to withdraw the claim for reimbursement for 50 euro per person without prejudice. (Ostensibly to cover our costs for the stopover that were not refundable). This was accepted by Finnair.
For the record I think the regulation is fairly clear as to the entitlement however it was not morally justifiable and I consider I was fortunate that the regulation exists to provide compensation at all. I think that Finnair may have considered that was the case otherwise I cannot see why they would have accepted without prejudice or not.
The total 650 euro pp.
Jul 12, 2018, 1:37 am
#619
Join Date: Nov 2009
Programs: qff, asia miles, amex, kvs
Posts: 50
A friend of mine was to fly HEL-HKG-AKL. Well, HEL-HKG got postponed to the following morning (what a surprise!) and he was rerouted HEL-DOH-AKL. He ended up arriving a whopping 12 hours early at AKL. I gave him the following advice, but I'm not really sure it was correct:
- no compensation due because he did not arrive late at the final destination
- duty of care applies in all cases, so AY should stand for the extra hotel night as well as reasonable meal costs (flight arrived @AKL 4 am)
Any comments?
- no compensation due because he did not arrive late at the final destination
- duty of care applies in all cases, so AY should stand for the extra hotel night as well as reasonable meal costs (flight arrived @AKL 4 am)
Any comments?
i received 600 euro for the delay to the original stop over out going flight and negotiated a extra 50 euro to avoid further action on a reimbursement claim on the flights not used under article 8.
If the final destination was AKL, rather than HKG with a second flight leaving within 24 hours (connection) then it may not apply.
Jul 12, 2018, 2:39 am
#620
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,749
Serfty, thanks! I didn't know that early departure qualifies for the compensation. ^
fdKen, thanks! A 36 hour stopover would actually break up your journey, so your "final" destination for delay compensation purposes would have been this stopover point.
fdKen, thanks! A 36 hour stopover would actually break up your journey, so your "final" destination for delay compensation purposes would have been this stopover point.
Jul 12, 2018, 11:07 pm
#621
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: HKG/HND/OOL
Programs: QF Emerald. SQ Gold.
Posts: 3,170
I'm getting this bogus response from Finnair on my BGO-HEL delay of 2hours essentially refusing to pay out my 250 eur... They insist delay is not 3 hours, to which I said for short haul class 1 flight that's not the case, and gave me this blurb blurb blurb... with bold being my emphasis.
has the rule changed? or are they just trying to BS their way out? i just want to know if my claim has merit?
"Please kindly note that according to the preliminary ruling handed down by the European Court of Justice (cases C-402/2007 and C-432/2007), passengers who arrive in their destination over three hours later than originally scheduled are entitled to the same standard compensation as passengers whose flights are cancelled, [omit] You can check this information from Finnish Compentition and Consumer Authority’s website https://www.kkv.fi/en/facts-and-advi...y-of-a-flight/.
The two hour time limit is related to passenger’s right to care. I hope this clears up the issue."
has the rule changed? or are they just trying to BS their way out? i just want to know if my claim has merit?
"Please kindly note that according to the preliminary ruling handed down by the European Court of Justice (cases C-402/2007 and C-432/2007), passengers who arrive in their destination over three hours later than originally scheduled are entitled to the same standard compensation as passengers whose flights are cancelled, [omit] You can check this information from Finnish Compentition and Consumer Authority’s website https://www.kkv.fi/en/facts-and-advi...y-of-a-flight/.
The two hour time limit is related to passenger’s right to care. I hope this clears up the issue."
Jul 13, 2018, 12:05 am
#622
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https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.h...C_1&format=PDF
Delay regulation (Article 6) applies to flights delayed two hours or more for flights of 1500km or less and is for "Right to Care" as per the various parts of Article 9 that Article 6 may specify. No Article 7 (Cancellation based) compensation is specified under Article 6.
More than a decade of Court rulings have decreed that delays of three hours or more shall also have the same level of compensation as described for Cancellation in Article 7, irrespective of the length of flight.
So, if a delay is less than three hours then no cancellation compensation is applicable however meal, accommodation etc. is payable.
Delay regulation (Article 6) applies to flights delayed two hours or more for flights of 1500km or less and is for "Right to Care" as per the various parts of Article 9 that Article 6 may specify. No Article 7 (Cancellation based) compensation is specified under Article 6.
More than a decade of Court rulings have decreed that delays of three hours or more shall also have the same level of compensation as described for Cancellation in Article 7, irrespective of the length of flight.
So, if a delay is less than three hours then no cancellation compensation is applicable however meal, accommodation etc. is payable.
Last edited by serfty; Jul 13, 2018 at 12:14 am
Jul 25, 2018, 9:39 am
#624
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 812
Just added the recent CJEU decision in Wirth v Thomson Airways (on the liability of an air carrier under a wet lease) to the wiki.
Jul 26, 2018, 12:58 am
#625
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: HEL
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Posts: 528
Very interesting, thank you paul00. Would this mean that AY is responsible for flights operated by Norra? My understanding is that in some cases where the flight has been operated by Norra, they've told the claimant to seek compensation from Norra.
It follows that an air carrier which, in the course of its air passenger carriage activities, decides to perform a particular flight, including fixing its itinerary, and, by so doing, offers to conclude a contract of air carriage with members of the public must be regarded as the operating air carrier. The adoption of such a decision means that that air carrier bears the responsibility for performing the flight in question, including, inter alia, any cancellation or significantly delayed time of arrival.
In the present case, it is common ground that Thomson Airways merely leased the aircraft and the crew which performed the flight at issue in the main proceedings, but that the fixing of the itinerary and the performance of the flight were determined by TUIFly.
In those circumstances, without it being necessary to examine the second cumulative condition provided by Article 2(b) of Regulation No261/2004, it must be held that an air carrier, such as Thomson Airways in the main proceedings, which leases an aircraft and its crew to another air carrier under a wet lease, cannot, in any event, be regarded as an ‘operating air carrier’ within the meaning of Regulation No 261/2004 and, in particular, of Article 2(b) thereof.
It follows that an air carrier which, in the course of its air passenger carriage activities, decides to perform a particular flight, including fixing its itinerary, and, by so doing, offers to conclude a contract of air carriage with members of the public must be regarded as the operating air carrier. The adoption of such a decision means that that air carrier bears the responsibility for performing the flight in question, including, inter alia, any cancellation or significantly delayed time of arrival.
In the present case, it is common ground that Thomson Airways merely leased the aircraft and the crew which performed the flight at issue in the main proceedings, but that the fixing of the itinerary and the performance of the flight were determined by TUIFly.
In those circumstances, without it being necessary to examine the second cumulative condition provided by Article 2(b) of Regulation No261/2004, it must be held that an air carrier, such as Thomson Airways in the main proceedings, which leases an aircraft and its crew to another air carrier under a wet lease, cannot, in any event, be regarded as an ‘operating air carrier’ within the meaning of Regulation No 261/2004 and, in particular, of Article 2(b) thereof.
Jul 30, 2018, 1:48 pm
#626
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Somewhat confusing case
I'm looking for some advise how to address a claim here.
Timeline: I arrive to AF to check in for ARN-CDG-HKG, but they advise they have a delay ARN-CDG that is making my connection risky [not a sure misconnect] and offer to rebook me on AY for ARN-HEL-HKG having me into HKG 3hrs early. Of course I jump on this offer as AY is showing no delays.
I check in with AY and arrive in HEL on time, however the infamous AY99 is delayed overnight due to late incoming. I fork out for a hotel night myself due to ridiculous lines. End story, delayed 4h and 10 mins compared to my original AF arrival time, and 7h 10 mins to the scheduled AY arrival.
That I am entitled to 600 EUR plus accomodation expense (EUR 120) is quite clear. However AY are saying AF is to pay, which I believe there is some foundation to as it is the airline causing the delay that is responsible. However, was my delay caused by AF (who rebooked me due to possible delay - in reality I would not have misconnected as they made up time and CDG-HKG was a little late), or was it caused by AY?
Timeline: I arrive to AF to check in for ARN-CDG-HKG, but they advise they have a delay ARN-CDG that is making my connection risky [not a sure misconnect] and offer to rebook me on AY for ARN-HEL-HKG having me into HKG 3hrs early. Of course I jump on this offer as AY is showing no delays.
I check in with AY and arrive in HEL on time, however the infamous AY99 is delayed overnight due to late incoming. I fork out for a hotel night myself due to ridiculous lines. End story, delayed 4h and 10 mins compared to my original AF arrival time, and 7h 10 mins to the scheduled AY arrival.
That I am entitled to 600 EUR plus accomodation expense (EUR 120) is quite clear. However AY are saying AF is to pay, which I believe there is some foundation to as it is the airline causing the delay that is responsible. However, was my delay caused by AF (who rebooked me due to possible delay - in reality I would not have misconnected as they made up time and CDG-HKG was a little late), or was it caused by AY?
Jul 30, 2018, 5:56 pm
#627
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Interesting. First, I was about to write that this is a complete nonsense answer from AY since it's always the operating carrier that pays up. But I'm not so sure. I think it boils down to the type of reroute you got from AF.
If AF forced you to take different flights, then they sort of caused the delay, right? But if they just nicely suggested and let you decide, then it's actually not an involuntary reroute in the traditional sense, is it, but instead just a ticket change (albeit one that AF didn't charge you anything for). And if it's just a ticket change, then AF owes you nothing since you agreed voluntarily to take these new flights. So at this time you held a ticket with AY, and got that ticket issued at a time when the HEL-HKG was to operate on time. You ended up delayed, AY's fault, AY pays.
I can't claim my reasoning is right, but it sounds logical to me.
If AF forced you to take different flights, then they sort of caused the delay, right? But if they just nicely suggested and let you decide, then it's actually not an involuntary reroute in the traditional sense, is it, but instead just a ticket change (albeit one that AF didn't charge you anything for). And if it's just a ticket change, then AF owes you nothing since you agreed voluntarily to take these new flights. So at this time you held a ticket with AY, and got that ticket issued at a time when the HEL-HKG was to operate on time. You ended up delayed, AY's fault, AY pays.
I can't claim my reasoning is right, but it sounds logical to me.
Jul 30, 2018, 6:30 pm
#628
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AF is not obligated to pay anything. It offered a voluntary reroute to avoid the risk of a delay, not a delay itself. You were then issued a new ticket on AY which operated a flight causing a 7:10 delay. Presuming that the delay was not for an extraordinary circumstance, you are entitled to claim EUR 600 from the operating carrier, e.g. AY.
Put another way, there is no delay claim until a delay occurs and that can only be measured when you reach your final ticketed destination.
The hotel room issue is unclear. AY has an obligation to provide a duty of care. If you choose to go it on your own, AY would be well within its rights to deny your claim.
Put another way, there is no delay claim until a delay occurs and that can only be measured when you reach your final ticketed destination.
The hotel room issue is unclear. AY has an obligation to provide a duty of care. If you choose to go it on your own, AY would be well within its rights to deny your claim.
Jul 30, 2018, 11:51 pm
#629
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: HEL
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I find it hilarious that if you have a flight with an AY code, ticket issued by AY but operated by Norra, AY claims they are not responsible but Norra is. Now when there is a flight with an AY code, operated by AY but ticket issued by AF, they claim that AF should pay. The only logic is that if there is another airline involved, AY tries to blame them 
Jul 31, 2018, 4:38 am
#630
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Interesting. First, I was about to write that this is a complete nonsense answer from AY since it's always the operating carrier that pays up. But I'm not so sure. I think it boils down to the type of reroute you got from AF.
If AF forced you to take different flights, then they sort of caused the delay, right? But if they just nicely suggested and let you decide, then it's actually not an involuntary reroute in the traditional sense, is it, but instead just a ticket change (albeit one that AF didn't charge you anything for). And if it's just a ticket change, then AF owes you nothing since you agreed voluntarily to take these new flights. So at this time you held a ticket with AY, and got that ticket issued at a time when the HEL-HKG was to operate on time. You ended up delayed, AY's fault, AY pays.
I can't claim my reasoning is right, but it sounds logical to me.
If AF forced you to take different flights, then they sort of caused the delay, right? But if they just nicely suggested and let you decide, then it's actually not an involuntary reroute in the traditional sense, is it, but instead just a ticket change (albeit one that AF didn't charge you anything for). And if it's just a ticket change, then AF owes you nothing since you agreed voluntarily to take these new flights. So at this time you held a ticket with AY, and got that ticket issued at a time when the HEL-HKG was to operate on time. You ended up delayed, AY's fault, AY pays.
I can't claim my reasoning is right, but it sounds logical to me.
Air France asked me in the check in line for business where I was heading and when I said HK they immediately said that because of the delay on their flight they were looking at re-routing me and asked if I was interested to fly on Finnair instead deparing an hour later and arriving 3 hours earlier - which I of course did not object to. It was an option I was given by AF - not a forced case.
Now of course AY have already said no to this claim [and I responded something along the lines of 'complex case, I am unsure of the legal situation here as to where the journey has started - upon trying to check in at AF or upon being re-routed prior to original departure']. So I am tempted to at least send the case AFs way and see what they say before attacking Finnair again.
However it certainly feels like a delay Finnair is the sole source of [I had a ticketed flight with no delays once I checked in with AY], and thus feels like a case for them to pay. Morally, regardless of the exact legal situation.
If they don't pay up for my hotel I can swear I am never ever booking AY on longhaul again.
[But yes I get your point, they may or may not be legally responsible to pay - however it was one of the cheaper options so I find it hard to believe a judge would not rule in favour of the pax as the airline is responsible to provide/pay accomodation]