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Old Jun 24, 2019, 10:25 pm
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by username
I think there is also a cultural aspect to this. The Chinese/Taiwanese are more communitarian than many western cultures. Especially the older generation, the upbringing is about sacrificing what you want for the well being of the group.

EVA/Evergreen also has deep Japanese influence from its founder - the top-down management style, discipline, teamwork, etc. It also treats employees better than many Taiwanese businesses.

On top of that, the FAs make more than most people already in the same age group and with the same educational background.

So, it is hard for people to agree with what they want to start with (which they got some from the company). Then they chose to strike with only 2 hours notice? They really failed on the PR front.

The Union leadership does not know what they are up against and the outside "consultant" probably has his own motivation. Can't just copy what happened in the western world and think it will work in TW.

I really hope this is not a start of EVA's decline.
The TFAU union are led by outsider who have political motive.

BR/evergreen is probably one of the best Taiwanese company in terms of pay and benefit. Yes they are like Japanese in terms of management style. But they also have benefit that is really comparable to Japanese corporation. They do care about their employees.

This is why the attendant has no public support nor support from other employees within the company.

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Old Jun 24, 2019, 10:29 pm
  #32  
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The sad thing is these FAs just blindly followed and voted for the strike - like how people follow certain politicians in certain countries...democracy at work!
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Old Jun 24, 2019, 10:33 pm
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by jmw

I fully expect both sides to play hardball. I expect neither side to give a crap about its customers including EVA Diamonds. If the management concedes to 85% of FA demands, others workers in the Evergreen group will follow. If the FA union concedes, management will steamroll the union with concessionary contracts because the union is shown they're too worried about getting canned if they engage in union activities.
Also please stop spreading lies.

i saw for my own eyes on how BR ate rebooking fares and how they stayed late in SF until last passenger left their ticketing office.

Me and my colleague have no status on BR (both of us are GS on United). Between us BR ate $2700 on our tickets.

Their management shows better care of their passenger than the princess attendant.

Also do not drag other strike into this discussion. BR attendant makes more than LH and all of US flight attendant. Their salary is also better than 70% of population in taiwan.

$120 per diem per day is ridiculous. My company has $80 per diem per day (it’s not even per diem- because is based on actual spend and we can’t go over $80). $60 per meal is excessively high. Even one of the world most profitable company doesn’t have that kind of budget.

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Old Jun 24, 2019, 10:49 pm
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by KekeVoyager
Hello Fellow Flyers,
I created a page on facebook in hopes to collect signatures to petition Eva Air Management to begin talks with the Flight Attendant Union regarding the strike. The strike has been going on for 3 days, and EVA Air Management refused to continue negotiation, and instead, is suing the union. We all know Eva Air cares about their Infinity Mileagelands members the most, so I kindly invite you to go to facebook and search event "無限萬哩遊星空聯盟會員 請願長榮回應空服罷工訴求 Petition of EVA Air members for Strikes"

Dear Eva Air Infinity Mileagelands and Star Alliance Members, do you remember the great care you were given during your previous Eva Air flights? Among all the employees of an airline, we spend the most time with cabin crews. I remember there was once that I ran to the boarding gate to catch a flight. As I boarded the flight, an EVA Air crew handed me some paper towels because she saw that my forehead was completely sweaty. It is these amazing cabin crews that make a difference to our travel experiences. As you know, the cabin crews are going through a strike right now, and being Eva Air management's most valued customers, it is our turn to give back to these crews. I kindly invite you to leave a message below with your Eva Air membership number or Other Star Alliance membership number, if you agree that "Eva Air management shall actively negotiate with the Cabin Crew Union for better working conditions and compensations." If you are concerned about leak of personal information, please feel free to put 1 to 2 "x" in your membership number (for example: UA1234567890 can be input as UA123x56x890) and please do not put your name. I believe EVA Air should have enough information in its data base to locate that the petition is signed by real members. Cabin crews with better compensations will of course give us even better care in return. I kindly invite you to join this petition. Thank you!

各位親愛的長榮無限萬哩遊及星空聯盟會員,你是否記得長榮空服如何無微不至照顧我們? 我曾經在機場跑步趕登機,上飛機後滿頭大汗,長榮空服看到主動遞上紙巾讓我擦汗。我也曾經用哩程換商務艙給 父母,而長榮空服知道後希望幫父母留下好的回憶,一直主動要幫他們拍照。長榮航空最重視我們卡客以及旅客。 這是我們回報長榮空服的時候。如果你同意簽屬此請願,希望長榮航空可以盡快正視空服工會的訴求,邀請您在此 填下您的會員卡號。如有個資洩漏的疑慮,也建議您將會員號碼一至二碼打x (如卡號BR1234567890 可輸入為 BR123x56x890)。請不要寫下姓名或是其他資料。相信長榮航空已有足夠資訊查明留言為會員本人。 拿到更好待遇的空服必然會給我們更無微不至的照顧。我們飛行常客的旅程裡,跟我們相處最久的就是空服。讓我 們挺照顧我們的空服人員吧!
不公不義,必然自斃
到國外網站哭更讓人不齒

長榮管理層比妳們這群公主好太多
高卡跟星空高卡不是笨蛋

剛剛留完負評的客人上
UA GS Jxxx49x
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Old Jun 24, 2019, 11:14 pm
  #35  
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While I don't agree with that the FAs are doing, there are some articles I just read that present the other side of the story:

https://udn.com/news/story/13013/3890854
https://udn.com/news/story/13013/3891270

both in Chinese.

I think part of the problem IS that Taiwanese employers are cheap and demanding. That is why Taiwan can offer a lot of good stuff, from airlines to health care to electronics, cheap

Things have gotten better (partially due to the labor struggles / left-leaning DPP policies) but it does have a long way to go. I think some of us on this board who are bilingual and pretty plugged in on both sides of the ocean choose to stay in the Western world because we do get better deals working for non-Taiwanese companies

Even though BR is considered one of the better ones, it does have some very disciplined style and not liked by many. Reading these 2 articles made me feel that these problems are long-standing and won't end with the conclusion of this strike. It will only get worse.
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Old Jun 24, 2019, 11:24 pm
  #36  
 
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I
Originally Posted by username
While I don't agree with that the FAs are doing, there are some articles I just read that present the other side of the story:

https://udn.com/news/story/13013/3890854
https://udn.com/news/story/13013/3891270

both in Chinese.

I think part of the problem IS that Taiwanese employers are cheap and demanding. That is why Taiwan can offer a lot of good stuff, from airlines to health care to electronics, cheap Thing have gotten better but it does have a long way to go. I think some of us on this board who are bilingual and pretty plugged in on both sides of the ocean choose to stay in the Western world because we do get better deals working for non-Taiwanese companies

Even though BR is considered one of the better ones, it does have some very disciplined style and not liked by many. Reading these 2 articles made me feel that these problems are long-standing and won't end with the conclusion of this strike. It will only get worse.
The thing is the attendant know about this. And they can choose to leave to find a company better fit their style.

Last edited by krispykrme; Jun 24, 2019 at 11:42 pm
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Old Jun 24, 2019, 11:55 pm
  #37  
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Originally Posted by krispykrme
The thing is the attendant know about this. And they can choose to leave to find a company better fit their style.
BR/Evergreen is definitely one of the more generous companies in TW. The benefits are actually pretty good - even for their US operations compared to many US companies.

One article basically described an FA's struggle to get released from the contract after she realized how hard the training was and it was not a good fit but the amount of compensation BR was seeking made it very difficult.

Some people abuse systems when they can. That is why companies put in these policies to counter.

I have had some dealings with BR (other than as a passenger) over the years and heard some stories. Their discipline, rules and systems are what made them successful. Services are not as good as before as the younger generation does not do as well with rules and processes. I just hope this whole episode won't make things worse.
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Old Jun 25, 2019, 4:34 am
  #38  
 
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I dont really follow BR news. I do personally find it odds about the no free rider clause. it is kind of crazy to say that one can get lower pay due to not joining union. is it the norm in Asia?
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Old Jun 25, 2019, 6:18 am
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer
"not some lowly GC who brings absolutely nothing to the table"

Perhaps the selection of the phrase was not thought out, but if it was intentional, it demonstrates an obnoxious arrogance and paucity of business acumen. I am a "lowly GC", Previously, I was Gold status, but in consideration of the poor quality of the Infinity Miles program, I chose to credit my EVA miles to a program where they do not expire, and where my perks are superior. In my "lowly" GC status, I flew 2 TPACs in premium laurel. I believe I bring something to the table and the profit the airline gained certainly beat the upgraders on the $1500 Y class fares. I don't churn and burn, nor do I use upgrades. Just remember that if the "lowly GC" customers were not around, the Gold and Diamond customers would find themselves in a very different position.

In your eyes, the management can do no wrong and the FAs and their labour reps are wrong. Ok. It is unfortunate that you do not comprehend the fact that the current labour management practices are out of date, and that the long running acrimony is a direct product of labour management practices at the airline. Change is coming because the labour market isn't what it was 20 years ago. EVA cannot afford to continue with multiple flight cancellations.

The only good thing that will happen is that EVA is going to quickly lose market share in the lucrative North American and EU markets, and it will be forced to offer a "sale" once the FA issues are resolved. I am fine with that since I will benefit. In the meantime, the shortsighted management strategy will cost the airline.
I fly every month and always in J.

You are making a fool of yourself thinking your 2 TPac means anything.

Majority of us fly over 100k butt miles a year. So we know what we are talking about.

I go out of my way to support BR at least 2-3 times a year. Despite adding 4 plus hour each way. Eating over heated food and frozen cake.

I think you have seen diamond and Gold. A United GS already shoot the petition down.

So stop thinking that your comment outweigh majority of us on this board.

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Old Jun 25, 2019, 6:19 am
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by pbd456
I dont really follow BR news. I do personally find it odds about the no free rider clause. it is kind of crazy to say that one can get lower pay due to not joining union. is it the norm in Asia?
shows how immature taiwan laws are.

i applaud EVA management on this specific issue.
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Old Jun 25, 2019, 6:45 am
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by pbd456
I dont really follow BR news. I do personally find it odds about the no free rider clause. it is kind of crazy to say that one can get lower pay due to not joining union. is it the norm in Asia?
its definitely not the norm in Asia. They are copying old 1935 US pro union rules and some European practices. Those are simply againat the founding principles and culture of Evaair as I know it.
Personally I think its very unwise to start a strike on the basis such ambitious requests. Its likely was encouraged by thr government's support in CI strike.
In 1998 I was personally involved in a strike on a much worsr issue in Taipei and could probably be considered a "strike traitor" ...In the end the strike did nothing and the leader came to the US for a new job, same as me who chose not to participate. At least we did not cause any trouble to thousands of passengers....
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Old Jun 25, 2019, 9:12 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by hayzel7773
Inflated sense of self importance is what you are giving off with your "generic business class customer like me is more profitable". Really? Your 3 TPACs are more profitable then BR's Diamonds? Did you know that ~60% of Diamond Card Holders don't use their miles at all? Did you know that ~50% of Diamonds book C-class tickets on a weekly basis? Are your TPACs C class? Did you know that ~20% of the remaining Diamonds also book business class tickets on a regular basis?
Yes. I believe that 3 generic TPACs can be more profitable than some of the Diamond's pax flights. This is attributable to my understanding that the generic business class flyer does not redeem points or use upgrades, and is less likely to access all of the perks and benefits that some Diamond FF's access. Obviously, there are a sizeable number of FFs who spend significantly. When you reference FFs booking flights on a weekly basis in C class (or business class or J class for those who nitpick) are these local flights/regional, or are these on long haul to the EU or North America?
In respect to the % that you cite, please direct me to the financial documents where they are published as I find them educational. They are quite a divergence from public information on other airlines. (I am not doubting the validity, but am curious where I can learn more.)

Originally Posted by krispykrme
The TFAU union are led by outsider who have political motive.
BR/evergreen is probably one of the best Taiwanese company in terms of pay and benefit. Yes they are like Japanese in terms of management style. But they also have benefit that is really comparable to Japanese corporation. They do care about their employees. This is why the attendant has no public support nor support from other employees within the company.

Do you have a published comparison on this, or is this just your personal opinion? All I have to go by are the labour audits I have seen, and on that basis, I see that branch offices or subsidiaries of multinational EU based firms have some of the best compensation packages. Everything is relative: If one used USA's Google/ABC as the measuring point, everyone would have awful working conditions. (No one can touch Google's benefits and compensation packages.) Your comparison to Japan of benefits provided is given to hyperbole. Which Japanese companies and for which class of workers are you referring to?? Perhaps the working conditions are similar to that of retailers such as 7-11 or Family Mart, but the benefits (and pay) are not comparable with Japanese airlines. I am reasonable enough to recognize that it would be an unfair comparison anyway, as the living costs and social expectations of Japan are quite different than those of Taiwan.
Originally Posted by krispykrme
Also please stop spreading lies.
i saw for my own eyes on how BR ate rebooking fares and how they stayed late in SF until last passenger left their ticketing office.
​​​​​​Me and my colleague have no status on BR (both of us are GS on United). Between us BR ate $2700 on our tickets.
Their management shows better care of their passenger than the princess attendant.
Also do not drag other strike into this discussion. BR attendant makes more than LH and all of US flight attendant. Their salary is also better than 70% of population in taiwan.
$120 per diem per day is ridiculous. My company has $80 per diem per day (it’s not even per diem- because is based on actual spend and we can’t go over $80). $60 per meal is excessively high. Even one of the world most profitable company doesn’t have that kind of budget.
Your comment was directed at someone else, but I do note your comment on per diem and offer that it is somewhat unfair. Please note that most companies with international travel requirements have per diem ranges that reflect travel zones and the employee position. Your $80 would not go very far in Tokyo. It is not unreasonable for per diems to reflect this.

Originally Posted by krispykrme
I fly every month and always in J.
You are making a fool of yourself thinking your 2 TPac means anything.
Majority of us fly over 100k butt miles a year. So we know what we are talking about.
I go out of my way to support BR at least 2-3 times a year. Despite adding 4 plus hour each way. Eating over heated food and frozen cake.
I think you have seen diamond and Gold. A United GS already shoot the petition down.
So stop thinking that your comment outweigh majority of us on this board.

It's unfortunate that you still have to fly 100,000 "butt miles" per year as you crudely put it. last year, I was able to reduce my mileage to just under 85,000 and hope to get it below 75,000 this year. Almost all of my travel was in business or first class. I do not go out of my way to support EVA, but will fly when the airfare or schedule is attractive. My reference to 2 TPACs was in reference to my flights on EVA. I usually fly on other airlines, either *A or SkyTeam.
I am surprised to read your issue with over heated food, as my meals are often served lukewarm . Despite that, I have no complaints about the quality of service and appreciate the professionalism of the cabin crew. I do not "think" my comment outweighs, the "majority" on the board. However, you are assuming that the small number of aggressive and bullying opinions expressed in the forum represent the full views of the customer base. People do not necessarily express their true sentiments, either because they do not wish to have a confrontation, or don't care what others think or can't be bothered. I do appreciate that there are some people who support the company position. I also recognize that there are some valid concerns raised by management. However,as I have stated multiple times. EVA has a labour relations problem. No amount of screaming or threatening or bullying will solve it. Leadership requires the ability to recognize when there is an impasse and when there is a persistent issue. The labour dispute we see today is a repeat of past disputes. Making allegations of sabotage or character assassination of the labour representatives will not help deliver a solution. It is quite obvious that there needs to be a change in the management approach and the negotiating strategy. This doesn't mean that the union is right, but if the company wants a solution it will have to show leadership and try a different approach. EVA is clinging to a negotiating style and approach that is outdated.

I mentioned it previously, but I will emphasize again, that time is on the workers side. Taiwan is a rapidly aging society. The median age is 41. In a about 5 years years, Taiwan will have what is called a "super aged" population. Despite claims by some in the forum to the contrary, there are not thousands of qualified candidates available to work as FAs. Taiwan has an unemployment rate of about 3.7%, which has resulted in a serious labour shortage. The unemployed are made up in large part by people who are either unemployable because of intellectual or physical deficit, or who are not appropriate for FA duties. Yes there are the infrequent polls that suggest that white collar workers consider the FA position a dream job. However, what is not covered in the polls is the opinion once the dreamers have the long hours and tedious working conditions explained to them. It is incorrect to assume that FAs can easily be replaced under the current economic and demographic characteristics. This is why the management mindset must change and view the FAs as an asset with some value. The current confrontational management style of both management and the union will only result in more fighting and bickering in future years.

Last edited by Transpacificflyer; Jun 25, 2019 at 9:20 pm
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Old Jun 25, 2019, 10:04 pm
  #43  
 
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How much is the per diem for other airline?
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Old Jun 25, 2019, 10:38 pm
  #44  
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You know, another thing I am thinking is that these FAs basically grew up during the "democratization" period of Taiwan where law is secondary to loud voices and irrational attention grabbing behavior. So, maybe they think that is how things work and didn't expect BR to hold firm?
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Old Jun 26, 2019, 8:44 pm
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by pbd456
How much is the per diem for other airline?
less than $3. Only select few has $5 (including CI when government forced airlines to eat it- causing CI to lack BR on profitability front).
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