I was in Berlin earlier this month - and the smoking ban was openly being flouted in one of the restaurants we went to. When I complained I was told that it doesn't come into force until August - which I knew was a lie, and on reflection I should have voted with my feet and gone elsewhere (instead of accepting their offer of a table in a small and not very comfortable non-smoking room)

Its half true. Smoking was banned January 1st, however, the law will not be enforced before July 1st. After July 1st smoking in a bar, pub or restaurant will cost up to 100 Euro for the smoker and up to 1000 Euro for the innkeeper. The law was only introduced late November 2007 and it was understood to be inappropriate to enforce the sanctions of sec.7 of the law. These were postponed in sec.8 para 2 until mid 2008.

http://www.berlin.de/imperia/md/cont...and_071108.pdf

Even being a very strict non-smoker I am not sure I fancy the UK situation. Its perfect with offices (and similar places), however, in particular on the pub and bar front it went too far in Bavaria and it goes too far in the UK.

The UK's justification for this strict ban is the protection of workers and workplace environment and this resulted is a strict law without any exceptions. Germany had quite a problem with the competence for issueing such laws and it was not clear whether it was state level or federal level. The workplace environment argument was understood (a) as being week and (b) not sufficient for all smoking bans (eg. in stations) which were considered. So they put it on state level which allowed a broader ban, however resulted in several different concepts in the individual states.

Most German states introduced a diversified concept, in particular for bars, restaurants and pubs balancing the general personal (constitutional) rights and freedoms of smokers and non-smokers. Smoking is understood (obviously by smokers) as part of the cultur and part of there personal freedom. This is not fully incorrect as smoking has several hundred year tradition.

In Bavaria they wanted to ban smoke even from places like the Oktoberfast of local beer festivals and it provoked a movement (and I understand this to be reasonable) to allow innkeepers to decide whether the establishment becomes smoke free or not - everybody has the choice. Some innkeepers transformed their properties into "private smokers clubs" which are in most states exempted from the ban and I do not mind. I don't have to go there and a smoker is not forced into a non-smoking property.

The simple argument "smoking is dangerous for non-smokers" is pretty weak. You driving a car is dangerous for non-automobilists. You playing golf on a course crossing public roads and paths is dangerous for other people. Several more examples can be found. Live is dangerous and the freedom for one person creates danger for others. The smokong ban in some places became a fanatic crusade - and this is never a good approach.

As a strict and allergic non-smoker, I concur that blanket bans can be overkill. Growing up, I witnessed - and appreciated - the cultural progression from "people can smoke anywhere they want" to "let's set aside a corner of the place for non-smokers" to "let's keep a corner for the smokers" to "people can smoke outside. But I have to say that I still find the idea that I can walk into a smoke-free pub, in Scotland, positively absurd.

I think there's definitely a need, from a cultural standpoint, from a policy standpoint, even from a public health standpoint, for small enclosed poorly-ventilated spaces where people who like smoke can share it.

Hopefully they will never fight out that sellings drinks increases the risk of getting involved in a pub fight for passive drinkers. This could spoil lots of the fun

Have just returned from a stay in Salzburg. Unfortunately Austria still largely follows the German tradition and there's a lot of smoke everywhere. However a number of restaurants have declared themselves non-smoking - it seemed to be indicated by a sticker near the door of a green cigarette (this is far from clear to me - I would have read it the other way round). Also many restaurants will have a no-smoking section (Nichtraucher). Most bars and cafes were very much smoking - didn't really find any non-smoking bars and cafes, not even the smart Konditorei, where the smoke damages all the fine goods they have to sell.

Vienna is still largely a smokers paradise. If you are used to UK non smoking (or US in my case) Vienna is not for you. everyone smokes everywhere

There are some cafes where it is off limits but that is the exception. In warmer weather that may be less of an impact since there are more outdoor cafes then

I love the "part of the culture" comments. The "loss of business" comments will come next - both ridiculous