JoostvD

The train is "rather expensive"? Why do you think that? The OP could buy a rail pass to cover a five-day travel within a ten day holiday, for example, for €259 (from the German rail company). Renting a car, for five days I see costs €325 (at Hertz). And the car rental cost is only the beginning - there are parking costs, fuel costs, road-usage costs, etc. Furthermore, the train ticket is more flexible (5 travel days within ten), while the car is only for consecutive days.

Warm? So, no ice on the roads even at high altitudes? And no snow in the mountains?

If this trip were proposed for summer or fall, I could understand better why someone (particularly someone who prefers driving over train) would think that car would be a good (though more expensive) alternative, especially for someone who is used to driving in Europe. However, under these circumstances, I don't at all understand this recommendation.

adventureadam

The train ticket from Prague to Munich is less than two nights of parking in the center of Prague at regular rates. (Again, unless hotel covers it)

livious

I did not consider a 5 day pass, sorry for that. I was going by normal prices and therefore was wrong. Either way, the OP states he is driving, so I am not sure why the train discussion is even relevant@:-) . (I do see your point though that the train is a good alteranative, but it is not for everyone)

As for driving, the weather has been rather good and I have not experienced any real problems with ice yet this year. I am assuming that OP is driving by day... as there would not be much to see at night and the scenic route would be rather pointless. The roads should be in good condition unless there is snow coming down. In general, Austria is a beautiful country to see by car and my experience is that you will miss quite a bit of the mountain scenery when travelling by train. As OP is from AUS, I am guessing that snowy mountains will be part of the charm and reason for driving.

If anything, maybe we can agree that dropping off the car in Vienna and then switching to the train would be a practical combination. OP would get to drive in the alps and then would get the benefits of the train (no parking and fuel costs, no driving in the cities) for the remainder of the trip.

JoostvD

If you think that the "normal prices" are expensive, I wonder when is the last time you looked at these prices?

You ask why there is train discussion. Someone, for example, writes he is coming to some city to visit some museum on this day. Then someone local replies: the museum is closed on that day. Would that not be helpful information for the OP? This situation is almost the same.
Am I correct that you do not speak/read German? And that, perhaps, you are speaking only of the neighbourhood where you live?

I looked at the Austrian automobile club site. They would be quite shocked by your statement that "the weather has been rather good." Why? Well, they say that roads in the west have been closed because of "avalanche danger" and that parts of the roadway the OP will be driving from Munich is requiring snow chains because of icy spots on the very road you "have experienced no problems with ice"!

I do agree with you that Austria is a beautiful country, but a car is not the only way to see its beauty. Trains do not travel only in the ugly parts and there is also a very good bus system that travels on the same roads as the car if you need to get to a village that doesn't have train service. I have done this myself in the winter (carrying my skis) and I enjoyed the scenery and the ability to keep my eyes on the lovely scenery instead of looking only at the road for icy spots and other problems if I had driven instead of taking the bus.

livious

I have found that the prices through OEBB (the Austrian train site) are not competitve when not booked in advance, which would be the case for the OP. However, the 5 day pass makes this a moot point.

I moved to Austria 4 years ago without being able to speak/read German and have survived. I can assure you that driving here is not very different than in other parts of the western world. If OP knows how to drive then he will not have much trouble due to language.

Well, maybe I am wrong as the update on ÖAMTC now is showing that some of the highest passes are requiring snow chains for trucks. Maybe OP will find this link helpful for weather related road closures:

http://www.oeamtc.at/index.php?type=menu&id=0280

It is in German, but the graphics show enough to get the point. Google Translate can help with the details if needed.

I realize the situation can differ for a particular region on a particular day but we just have not (yet) had the sort of weather that shuts down everything. Sure it is coming, but the mess usually comes in January. At the moment the warnings are for LKVs and for certain mountain passes, which is almost standard. They have been salting rather heavily so far and I would worry more about ice at night...hopefully OP is enjoying a drink by the fire at that point.

In my experience the trip from MUC to SZG should be no trouble as it is a well serviced autobahn. Problems might arise when leaving the autobahn for Hallstatt, but in truth bad weather would hamper any tranist (rail, bus or car) due to the location. The trip to Vienna should just depend on the weather. If it snowing, then OP should use the autobahn as they are better serviced. If the weather is fine, then then the smaller mountain roads should not be a major concern.

Maybe I am just used to driving in snow. If so, then OP should not heed my advice and I owe you an apology.

No problems with these statements, but OP has clearly stated he will be driving and I do not see a big problem with this. Again, I would use the car to explore as much as I can and then drop in off in Vienna and switch to rails.

JoostvD

Since he leaving from Germany, you might better have looked there. As another poster has already pointed out, the train fare from Germany costs less than two nights of parking in Prague (also on the OP's itinerary). So you are also wrong on the "normal prices."
Again, you are oversimplifying. "driving here is not very different than other parts of the western world" In the Netherlands, we have no mountains and only a few hills. I would say that the driving here is very different from the driving in Austria (or Switzerland or southern Germany). Language may not be a problem for driving, but because Europe has different road signs than the US, unless he learns them before he leaves, he will indeed have problems.


Yes, you are again wrong. And when I look at the automobile site, it shows the icy areas are not only in the "highest passes" but also on flat ground west of Vienna, as well as several other areas the OP must drive through.

Your description of the driving situation simply does not match the report from the Austrian auto club. Yes, not everything is closed, but neither is it a simple matter for an inexperienced foreign driver.

Ah, but the difference is that the trains and buses are driven by professional, experienced local people, not foreigners who may not even know what the road signs mean and probably will not be able to read emergency messages.

It is not only that you may be used to driving in snow, it is that you make statements that turn out to be not accurate (costs of train travel, road conditions, etc.). Even though the OP has been very rude, I'm sure none of us would like to see him in a serious accident. That is why it is better to give more careful advice and not just say "oh everything will be fine."

As I've said before, in good summer or autumn weather, this would be a completely different question. But, in winter, with stressful conditions and a foreign driver inexperienced with local conditions, I see this as a big mistake.

livious

I do not agree that OP was ever rude, he just was not asking for a lecture about why trains are superior. You have definietly extolled the virtues of the train, but I think we have both taken the topic OT. Despite all of your sage advice (and my horrible errors) the OP is still driving nonetheless.

I get the train option, and yet everyone in Austria seems to survive fine despite the horrible driving conditions. Well, time for me to head home now. Hope I can manage my terrible drive home.

JoostvD

Well, perhaps if you commuted by train...

The OP wrote "looking forward to a great trip (by Plane and Car, haha)!" I and others consider that rude.

livious

Normally I walk. The train would actually take too long.

I guess I did not read that "haha" the same way as he also used the "haha" in other posts without that connotation. But I can see your point. Either way, we have gone OT long enough now and will probably not make any headway on the issues of trains vs. cars. Hopefully OP has a safe and enjoyable trip.

JoostvD

I will just conclude to say that you are a much kinder and reasonable person than the OP. If you are going to stay in Europe, I would suggest that you try to adopt yourself more to the life here. I think (and hope) you will enjoy yourself more.

Helena Handbaskets

In Hallstatt the salt mine is worth a visit. Like most things in and near Hallstatt, it's better in the summer when you may also like to take the trail along the sites of the prehistoric graves, and to hike back down to town through the forest, or to have lunch on the terrace of the MartinsTurm restaurant overlooking the lake. In summer you may also want to visit the Dachstein ice caves and/or take the gondola up to the top station. In winte you can also ski from the top station, but I think there are better options if your objective is skiing. I also find the Gosausee to be well worth a visit in the summer. To see the ice caves or the Gosausee you will want a car rather than rely on the train, as other options eat up too much time.

In summer or winter, make sure you visit the souvenir/sports shop that's just down the road from the Heritage Hotel, which includes excavated Roman ruins downstairs - a feature I have yet to find in any other sports apparel shop to date.

Also make sure you walk north about a 1/4 mile from the Heritage hotel on the main road, to the spot where all the postcard photos of Hallstatt are made.

For your lengthier visit to Hallstatt (in the summer), you'll want to include a stop in Salzburg for at least a day or two.

I've made four visits to Hallstatt, and have driven there each time. Train connections are not as friendly to/from Hallstatt, and the penalties imposed by cities (traffic, navigation, parking) are not as severe, and bus/taxi options are more sparse. Even so, if you're like me, you will find yourself inventing reasons to take the train to/from Hallstatt once you arrive, just for the sheer romance of using a rail depot that sits alone on the other side of the lake from the town, requiring a short boat ride across the lake for each arrival and departure.

Which brings me to the number one activity not to miss in Hallstatt (in my opinion): Sit on a balcony facing the lake and wait for the train to snake its way along the opposite shore, disapearing in the trees to stop at the Hallstatt station, and then continuing on to the next town. Watch the boat bring two or three travelers across the lake. Continue to sit on the balcony for 30-90 minutes or so, when the boat will depart Hallstatt with a couple of passengers bound for the train station. After it docks, the train will return from its previous direction, and the boat will come back again with a couple more passengers. It's like a minature train set writ large, and is about the most peaceful thing I can imagine. It's the image I conjure in my mind when I want to diffuse stress. You can watch this scene from the warm side of a window in the winter, but it's better when you are more fully surrounded by the magnificent landscape.

I drove in Vienna once, when I was young and naive, and would not recommend it.

In Vienna, if you're a fan of classical music, and have a companion, go to one of the Strauss dance/concerts they hold regularly at various venues. And/or a more formal concert - but I enjoyed the Strauss dance / concert better. For a fan of classical music it can also be a less-well-promoted-to-tourists treat to go out to the little town (suburb?) called Heiligenstadt, where there are two of Beethoven's residences, including the one where his landlord's knock on the door for overdue rent supposedly was the inspiration for the opening theme of the 5th symphony. Sadly, the theater where Beethoven's 9th symphony premiered - and where the concertmaster had to turn Beethoven (who was deaf by then) around at the end of the performance to see the madly cheering crowd - was either no longer there or was not open when I was there. In warmer weather, you can also go to "composer's corner" in the main cemetery and make a grave rubbing on the marker for your favorite Viennese composer (not Beethoven, though - his grave is there but his marker is not amenable to rubbing. And not Mozart, either, as his grave is unknown). Also in Vienna the history museum contains many of the more interesting prehistoric finds from Hallstatt, as well as the Venus of Willendorf, if you're into that kind of thing. And if you like Gustav Klimt's paintings (how can you not?), Vienna is the place to see the largest public collection of them. You should not miss the chance to have a coffee at a Vienna cafe, and perhaps a slice of Sacher Torte, although I personally prefer the Linzer Torte.

TXHolmes

Thanks to everyone who offered advice on things to see and do, and routing options/experiences. And to everyone who has taken offense at my statements, I am not sure why offense was taken... I was simply trying to get the thread back on track to my original question, if you wish to talk about trains, I think there is an entire section concerning them... my choice to drive does not mean I think trains are a bad choice, just not what I wanted for this trip. I did not wish for my thread to become derailed (no pun intended) from my original intent which was things to see and do, not method of transport or costs thereof.

Just an update, we flew into Munich and found that Hertz had upgraded us to an Audi A6 quattro, quite nice, with integrated GPS... the Autobahn from Munich to Salzburg was amazing, super smooth, with a tremendous amount of traffic but you would never know because it moved so smoothly (much smoother than in the US). Each city or area had a brown sign for its exit noting the sights offered. In addition to stopping in a few small villages when we saw an interesting spire, we stopped in Abdenauer along the way and did a bit of shopping, and after finding that the salt mine was closed today (monday) decided to hop in the car, turn on the heated seats and drive to Obertraun and toured the amazing scenery a bit further (which is why I wanted to drive in the first place). The alps truly are beautiful beyond any picture... driving in the alps was similar to driving in the Rockies in the US or Canada, but I dare say more beautiful.

We did see the train as Helena (not female or from Montana, haha) suggested, which was very beautiful as it hugged the opposite coast of Hallstattersee. Although it is winter, we bundled up in our scarves and coats, sipping Gluhwein as the snow gently fell and clung to every surface it touched... we made the hike up to the vantage point of the salt mine as the funicular was closed, which worked up an appetite for the awesome schnitzel vom kalb and porcini ravioli at Gutenbraun (spelling?). Today we also visited the museum, and ancient roman bath ruins discovered under the sport shoppe, and have walked just about every street, and visited every shop that would have us, haha. While Hallstatt has been exactly what I wanted, covered in snow and glittering with lighted trees in the churches and the square, and evergreen boughs on every doorframe, I do want to return in the summer.


So tomorrow we leave for Vienna where the car will be parked by the Hotel for two days while we enjoy the city.

Thanks again to everyone who offered advice!

livious

Glad to hear that things worked out and you are enjoying your trip. Hope the trip to Vienna is safe and that you can enjoy some more gluhwein. The Christmas markets are wonderful there!

mattarse

Hope your enjoying the drive - and if not too late here's a link for Czech road closures/construction etc:

http://dopravniinfo.cz

Coming from Vienna you will probably stick to the highways so there shouldn't be any problems but not bad to have an idea of what's in front of you.

Not sure if the Hilton Old town has parking or not, but if not be careful to watch for blue lines when parking on the street. This indicates the parking requires a permit (and as a visitor you cannot buy one, restricted for residents), but I'm sure the Hilton can advise on where to park.

I love driving vacations as well - trains etc have there place but sometimes the drive is the vacation.

Cheers,
Matthew

mattarse

Also for Christmas markets in Prague - I like the one at Jiriho Z Podebrad (metro stop) normally although I haven't stopped in this year - otherwise they are all over the city.

Matthew