ly787

I know this has been discussed in other threads but i wanted to talk about it properly now with the intro of the new BMI Airbus 332 flights.

It seems like very quickly LY's premium class prodcts will be below industry standards even compared to its direct competitors. Just look at what other airlines are offering on the same routes:

BA - New C class and current First class are way above the LY C and F class.
BMI - The new A 330 will have a business class atleast as good as the new first class on LY, BMI's premium economy is similar to the C class seats on the 767s'.

LH - LH's Business class is similar to LY's long haul Business Class, but LH First Class is far superior to LY's First. LY uses 73G with 45' Pitch cradle seats.

Swiss - LX's new Business class on A330 will be far superior to LY's new long haul business class. On A340 the business class is similar to LY's long haul C class. First class on A 340 is superior to LY's F class. LY uses 73G with 45' Pitch cradle seats.

IB - offers A340 twice a weak, will probably be daily soon. Those Business class seats are the same exact seat LY installed in its First class, just with a bit less pitch.

Delta - New BusinessElite seats on 764 and 772 are FLAT.
Continental - Will have a new flat seat in its BusinessFirst

What do u think?

apirchik

It's not a fair game comparing LH, LX and IB premium products on the widebodies to LY 737s. Most passengers that fly from TLV on these 3 carriers or others like AF, KL, OS (soon with 767s), go to destinations beyond the airline hub - I would generally say mostly to north America, south America and the far east. LY is not competing with LH by flying a 737 to FRA, they compete with them by flying a 777 to JFK, HKG and GRU, where most LH passengers go. OTOH, most LY passengers that fly to VIE, FRA, ZRH and MAD usually don't connect and the amount of passengers that do this cannot justify using a widebody on such routes. LY is not Emirates that can afford to have an all widebody fleet.

Per the premium products on the widebodies - I somehow believe that LY is not trying to get the passenger that does the comparison like you and is willing to pay more for comfort (as absurd as it may sound for C and F products). I believe they have a good stategy in this - have a good pricing plan for premium products, have a decent product - one that is not the best but is not a "don't fly them" type either and they have a great customer base that will fly them no matter what the aircraft type and service is.

clubman

LX: While the new A330 C class might be very good, it is still a while until we see it on the route, and in the meantime they are using the A332 with the old C class which is the worst LH Business class they have.
The A340 is no longer flying the route unfortunately...

IB: Looking at some random dates, I can really see just one flight a week to MAD operating with an A340, but even if it were two, it's still just two flights out of 14 weekly, while the rest are operated with A319/A320's with a very very basic C product.

ly787

apirchik - My main point was to compare the long haul routes, and I used the european airlines since they mostly fly israeli pax beyond the hub city.
I believe LY will have a problem , especially competing on the NYC/LHR routes (which are its two strongest premium routes) against DL, CO, BMI and BA.

Clubman - I wrote "LY's premium class prodcts WILL be below industry standards". Its a process, LY hasn't even upgraded its 744 ( except for one).
IB was offering twice a week up unitl a few weeks ago. I am sure it will be daily at some point soon.

gordo6

what you have called first class is actualy ly's short haul business class.

althought american companies call their local business class "first", ly, like other european companies also call their regional business class "business" while first is a better class the business, offered on long haul routes and the seats can become to flat beds.

ELAL

anyone know the reason they stopped using the A340, or when or if they will restart using them?

one of th main reasons i used swiss for my connetion flights, was because i loved thier A340's?

entropy

LY already HAS a problem.

apirchik

If that was your point, why did you mention the 73G?

clubman

I think you may have slightly misunderstood ly787's comments.
He was simply stating what LX offer on the route (though a little misleading as well, since they don't actually offer First on the route, not even first seats since they switched to the A330) and what LY offer on the route.

I think he knows the difference between Business and First, and was not implying that the 737 cradle seats were a First class product...

ly787

thanks clubman

Apirchik - i guessed i was not being clear, i mentioned the 73G to be clear that I am not trying to compare the specific routes but rather to compare the long haul premium products. It was suppose to be a side note.

I AM COMPARING EL AL'S NEW BUSINESS (762/3, 777, soon on all 744) AND "NEW FIRST" (777, soon on 744) to
BA's - 777/763 to LHR
BMI's - A330 to LHR
DL/CO - 777 to US
LH, LX, IB - TO US/FAR EAST/L. America

is it clear now?

gordo6

If so, then I was wrong and Im sorry.

LXA350

SWISS has switched from A343 to A332's (double daily) in December 08 because LX wanted to raise capacity and comfort on it's DXB route as EK is operating most flights to ZRH with the A345.
Nevertheless by March 2011 all A332's have left the LX fleet and the entire long haul fleet will be equiped with the new F and C class.

However I can't understand why LY an airline who doesn't switch it's interior too often didn't choose a top modern cabin product that will keep them competitive for the next 10 or so years. Instead they choose seats that are already outdated beofre they were installed on their aircraft.

ly787

thats exactly what i am trying to understand.

LXA350

The worst is to read the LY marketing. They base their eintrie long haul plane on their 2 B772's that were delivered last year with this "amazing" AVOD system. To be fiar AVOD systems are great but now a days are something to expect from a good airline and not something amazing. The same applies to their seats, they try to sell their crapy new interior as if it's really something revolutionary. Not even talking about the fact that LY maybe changed the seats in the remainder of it's B772's and B744's but not the IFE.

DLPhoenix

I Think apirchik got it right. LY is targeting the crowd that would pay for more than Y service, but can not afford / does not want to pay 6x the price. Most of the Israeli business comunity fits this profile (in addition to a large group of ultra FFs that buy expensive Y tickets and expect to be rewarded with upgrades).
My advice to LY would be to keep the premium classes as they are and offer a Y+ / C- product that takes 1.5 the floor space of a Y seat and sell it for 2x the fare or use it for upgrades.

DLP