Adam,

The security issue for connecting traffic through TLV, in my opinion, could be easily resolved. Suppose someone is flying LHR to DEL through TLV because we offer an excellent business class fare. This person has a 2 hour layover at TLV. So long as this person does not leave the secure area of TLV, there is no reason, in my opinion, for a second security check to be performed on that individual.

As far as security in general, I believe EL AL's tactics and profiling system, as they carry it out, are out of date. There is a plethora of technology available, many invented by Israeli companies, which could be utilized to streamline the security process and make it less intrusive for travelers whom EL AL would profile for various reasons. Utilizing increasing levels of less intrusive technology mixed in with the current system would make travelers feel more comfortable flying LY and transiting between east/west thereby enabling a sort of transfer operation to develop.

Entropy and Bernie,

I would like to respond to your TLV hub topic in one post...

I think TLV could be turned into somewhat of a hub for connecting east/west traffic. Certainly it will not become a hub like Dubai, but it can be a hub for such.

LY flies to Europe, North America, Asia, and one destination in Africa. Given the fact that Israel is global high tech powerhouse, emerging G10 economy, a hot vacation destination in itself, coupled with its geographic location between 3 continents, LY could and should have done more to turn TLV into a connecting traffic hub between east/west.

With that in mind, I would focus on scheduling flights between east/west conductive to connecting traffic. I would create a ladder of fares and promotion for such and enable seamless booking of these sorts of fares on the LY website. Expanding codeshare agreements and getting into an alliance would greatly enhance volumes of connecting passengers as well.

Sure, and if I am to chose between TLV and DXB, I would not hesitate a second to pick TLV since I am not a big friend of this disney land they have build on sand there.

But since there is no direct flight between TLV & DXB, LY has kind of a problem as a larger regional operation..

It would be IMO rather a niche carrier for a for a rather select target group.

The dawn of he A350-900R is the dawn of aircrafts which can reach the most remote locations non stop, so for that plane to land in TLV while en route from LHR to SYD (for example), is rather unlikely, given the high costs for taxing, starting, airport fees and so on.

If there is a non-stop option and one with a layover, not everone smokes like I do or likes to have a cafe on beach front TLV, so, these east/west l/h connections will likely get impacted by a/c like the A350-900R, don't you think so? The original date was 2014 and it has gotten postponed, but they will roll out the first A350's is this year.

With this profiling issue, since I lost my virginity, for me its not a problem, but there are an increasing number of people out which don't even like to get profiled by google (me included, just cancelled last month my fake account because they had gotten from somewhere my real birth date!?!) so to think they would love to be profiled @TLV, even with all the sentimental stuff spooking through their mind and soul.

Perception is reality...that's not going to be easily changed by technology...

Bernie,


As far as I am aware, a significant portion, if not outright majority, of traffic through Dubai is connecting east/west traffic. Most people that fly Emirates either connect east/west or go to visit Dubai, or a combination of the two.

Consequently, LY could do the same thing in TLV. LY could offer east/west connections through TLV between destinations such as New York and India, Europe/India/Far East, and even Europe/Australia should EL AL one day fly to the land down under. Obtaining this sort of traffic would both enable EL AL and Ben Gurion airport grow in passenger volume, increase tourism to Israel as a significant portion of this traffic would be curious enough to spend a day or two layover visiting Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and make EL AL attractive to an alliance.

As far as the A350 is concerned, this a/c would only be good for a TLV-SYD run, but then again so would an A380. If LY ever decides to fly to Australia, this will be an issue, but for now its not.

You are right about security and perception, however one of EL AL's (only) strengths its its perception as being the most secure airline in the world. If we can streamline security for these connecting ops while retaining the integrity of the security apparatus through technology, a critical mass of people would go back home and say security in TLV was a breeze and they felt safe, thus changing the perception of EL AL's and Israel's intrusive security regime over time. Obviously, these changes will have to be in coordination with the Shin Beit and other Israeli security services.

DXB is already strong, so are IST and CAI (growing and *A), but I never have flown any of the gulf carriers and DXB only in/out for business.

I am sure that there are studies out, but I feel even in the west, percentage wise you have a too great number of pax which you won't get on LY or TLV.

Not with that mixed brand recognition (which people tend to see that different of course). For you it's a very positive and safe brand, others might see hijacked aircrafts, terrorists and armed guards, people arent often that sophisticated in analysing things and they tend to have rather some images from the 70's, bomb attacks in TLV, rockets or blown up PamAm over Lockerbie in their mind, this stuff is still repeated too much on TV. They, deep inside, connect that to LY (even if totally flawed, but it makes little difference, as said, perception..).

I am not touching here the environing countries which should be the natural catchment area for an aspiring and expanding carrier..

So, they have a block of led on their legs..And there are carriers out which are with much less weight on their legs and much greater and equally developed catchment areas, shortly before passing away...

That calls IMO rather for a lean niche player, which is likely very hard work to achieve, if it does not become profitable, then its IMO up to the Israeli people to decide if they want to preserve the purpose of this piece of heritage and identity. If they want to settle the bill, why not, its public transport...but if they don't....

Look, the catchment area is rather limited, so they have to reach into areas where you have already fierce competition, that comes IMO with a block of led. Be sure that between any spots on the world map, if there is enough demand, there will be direct flights, its much more cost effecient.

If there are today only transfers, then probably the critical mass of PAX for point to point transfers had not been reached (or the metal is not there yet)..

If that is the case, IMO one should be very considerate to enter that arena.

Most airports and security folks would disagree. In HKG and BKK you go through security to get from arrivals to departures. In SIN you go through security before getting to the gate.

Same with any airport I've every transited, minus domestic USA flights and intra-Schengen flights. TLV-EWR-XXX requires re-clear. JFK-LHR-YYY does too, etc.

Nearly every airport I'm familiar with requires reclearing security. An airline that flies from a country with substandard security might be a sieve for a terrorist to get into the secure zone in TLV. Israeli security isn't that big of a deal if you're M.O.T. and heading to Israel.
If you're not, then it may make you think twice about taking LY thru TLV. I've heard from other people who aren't Jewish and have experienced LY's security professionals, that they'd rather increase their colonoscopy frequency than go through that again.

All of the east west stuff is meaningless if you have to fly around the Gulf states instead of over them. It adds so much time on flights to India that it can't be competitive with DXB and I suspect the same is true from Europe to Asia. Australia and South Africa are the likely exceptions.

NYTA,

I have to disagree with you. EL AL's flights to the far east are profitable. Are they as profitable as they would be if LY was allowed to overfly Saudi Arabia, the answer is clearly no, however even with the longer sector time utilizing a mix of 744/777/767 these routes are profitable, so much so that LY has increased their frequencies for Q1 of 2013.

Consequently, if EL AL is able to generate connecting traffic, these flights would continue to be profitable with the added bonus of more revenue. Make no mistake, I am not saying that TLV could be an east/west connecting hub on the same or similar scale as Dubai nor that they could generate such traffic on the scale Emirates does, nor that TLV at this point in time could compete with Dubai. What I am saying is that it is possible to grow EL AL's ops and volumes, in some part, by attracting east/west traffic and turning TLV into somewhat of a transit point.

It's felt close to be totally Orwellian for people which do not have any religious affiliations.. And with the colonoscopy, if you speak about my laptop, yes, I prefer colonoscopy over having to see a nice lady escaping with my laptop out of sight and staying out of sight for 10 minutes or so. The colonoscopy has the benefit that we see whats going on in there, with my laptop, I have to guess and worry and that can cause serious stomach problems...

1. Encrypt your hard drive. PGP has a decent solution.
2. Use steganographic file system (true crypt offers this solution in addition to an encrypted file system).
3. make sure to bring a note from your MD saying that if they are already doing the colonscopy, if they can grab a sample of the polip at the end of the tunnel (to the left).

Seriously though - TLV cannot become a hub before peace breaks out. But - capacity to India can certainly increase (DEL, BLR (!)), Japan (many Christians, flight time almost not affected), or even come up with new routes that no one serves (no direct flight from Europe to CCU, not even TK, so West Europe->TLV->CCU is actually a feasible route for connecting pax).

And as I mentioned before, IcelandAir is actually a good partner to consider - they have a few good US/Canada connections, and have no Eastward (eastern of Israel) operations on their own. A feeder flight from RVK to TLV and back could certainly be useful (and RVK has plenty of open slots).

El Al's flights to the far east are only profitable because they have a monopoly on those routes. If the government didn't allow codeshares to Bangkok with Thai and to PEK with Air China, and the foreign airlines actually had to fly those routes, I believe you'd see much lower prices. Last year I flew to HKG in Y and it was $1300 on AF vs. $2,400 on LY. Worth a few extra hours of my time, I'd say.

I also believe that the prices are unreasonably high to MAD and ZRH because of the government sanctioned duopoly codeshares there. I for one can't wait for the EU open skies agreement to happen.

Personally, however, I wonder what would happen if a European airline wanted to fly to the far east with a stop in Tel Aviv? If one of the European governments had some balls they'd tell the gulf states that if they didn't allow overflight, then they wouldn't give reciprocal landing rights. That would change things in a hurry. I also wonder if this would be allowed under the perpetually delayed open skies treaty.

Although the fashion seems to be to stop doing that.
ZRH for example have stopped it now, for some flights at least.

Thats interesting, "pretty good privacy" you mean? I should be looking into that. Also This Mr. Dotcom did start a new file sharing site and is en-route to develop a lot of interesting services, but, if you go on this mega site, they almost force you to use google chrome and I am not sure what to think about that.
I have supposedly something else there, so it might be worthwile to have a look if that is in the presence of a security agent, who gives a s*it these things tend to anyway involve really nice young and energized ladies @tlv, it makes all less stressful..

(Disclaimer, I have not heard about these procedures, but prefer them over the other)
With the peace, sure, it will come, just look carefully...