rkt10

FlyingPenguin,
You've raised some really good points. And to me that the airlines are using a loophole in the intent of the regulations.

But there are two ways of looking at it.
First, the airlines need the money of each and every seat possible, so they aren't going to do anything to minimize revenues.

Second, they really don't care what incremental costs a disabled passenger has to travel. "If they want to travel, then they'll have to do what it takes to travel."

And, I suppose it plays into the individual this way.
First, the individual doesn't want to be needing to invoke governmental rules to get something one could use. So you pay the money and make the best of it.

And, individuals feel a sense of obligation not to take something for nothing. So why should I expect the airline to give me something for nothing?

So (in my case) I accept the short trip as being worth spending even one night with my brothers, when I drop my sister off for a vacation. And the cost of the trip is also a fair enough price to pay for a bit of a breather from caring for a handicapped sister.

In any event, I want you to know how deeply I respect your conscience when it comes to your reading of the regulations. I absolutely agree that I couldn't honestly say that Chris could travel alone. She could never do so. So I accept the fact that I need to accompany her on a paid ticket.

Rita

jonesing

Frontier Airlines' web site pretty much parrots the information in Part 382
http://www.frontierairlines.com/faq/index.asp#DP
I called to check on the policy because we are making preparations to bring my FIL to NM. The airline rep pretty much said they won't decide if a pax needs an aide unless it's "painfully obvious" ie blind, deaf, on oxygen and in a wheelchair--or a person who obviously can't function independently for the 5-6 hours duration of a trip (including terminal time and dealing with TC and TSA personnel). The FAs won't administer meds, will assist *to* the lavatory but not assist inside the lavatory.

FIL probably can't travel by himself so we checked into air ambulance services that provide commercial air carrier medical escorts. One rep told us that we would be better off financially flying out, getting him and then all of us flying back--in first class--than it would be for us to engage their services. For a "very simple" escort mission...pick up at discharging facility, transport to airport, escort on flight, transport to receving facility while administering meds and attending to any personal needs en-route they would charge aroud $7000. They arrange for all travel (patient and escort travel in first class) with the airline's Medical Desk.

So we could chance it by taking him to the airport and seeing if the airline will assert he needs an attendant so that one of us could fly free, but also be prepared to have to buy a ticket because we all have to get back. We're just going to buy the tickets outright.

FlyingPenguin

I agree with you, mostly .

If flights were constantly full with full-fare-paying pax, then the airlines would be looking at losing revenue by offering discounts to companions of disabled pax. However, I daresay if that were true, we wouldn't be seeing airlines go into chapt 11.

I know that the cost of paying for 2 tickets every time I want to travel reduces the amount I travel, and I'm guessing that if you could travel for 50% of Chris's ticket (which would be the case if you flew within Canada or Australia), she might visit your brother a little more often. When we decide we can't afford the double air fare, then the airlines' unwillingnes to "lose" 50% of the companion's fare ends up losing them the other 50%, plus 100% of the disabled pax's fare.

As for not caring about the incremental cost to disabled pax, they do care about the incremental cost to parents--otherwise why would they offer 25% discounts to kids under 12, or sometimes have "kids fly free" promos? And why do they offer senior discounts? Presumably because they know that seniors on limited incomes simply won't fly otherwise, and they want the business of those seniors. (And the really irritating part is that, given the relatively low number of disabled travellers compared to seniors and people with children, I suspect the cost to the airlines of offering discounts to disabled pax or their aides would be small).

You're right, I don't expect to get something for nothing. But I don't think it's unreasonable to want to get a discount that is offered to others with no more intrinsic "right" to a discount than I have.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.

DeafFlyer

If I, a disabled man, will be forced to fly with a companion (buying 2 tickets), the result is that I can't travel anywhere. I have to pay twice as much as others to go somewhere. That is, in some ways, discrimination. Providing a discounted or free companion fare would allow those with disabilities a chance to live a normal life. It is a way to accommodate them. Sure it costs the airlines, but it's just a part of doing business. Whether that's right or wrong is, I guess, up teach individual.

missydarlin

I'm confused by your statement. You say that you would be unable to travel anywhere if forced to pay for a companion, which leads me to believe that you currently travel without one. Then you say that providing the companion fare would allow those with disabilites to live a normal life. Do you consider your disability something that REQUIRES a companion to travel? If the airline decided, "deaf people need attendants and we will provide travel for them at no charge", do you not think that they could turn around and REQUIRE you to have an attendant for ALL your travel?

I don't think its a good idea to have airlines determining what disabilities require attendants. "Needing" assistance can be very relative. In another thread someone mentioned how "AA doesn't care about disabled psgrs" because they wouldn't assign him and his father seats together. Would you really want someone to assess your disability over the phone?? If its obvious that the father needed an attendant, it would have been taken care of at the counter, yet AA is deemed uncaring because they want to assess that in person. Another person with the exact same disability may be quite content to travel alone, and offended at the idea that they "needed" to have an attendant seated next to them.

As for the "incremental costs"..I dont think airlines care about incremental costs to parents or seniors either. Kids Fly Free programs are usually in conjunction with a resort package where more money is involved than just the basic airfare. The youth fares that I'm aware of are usually limited to international flights. Seniors make up a very powerful consumer group, and despite the "limited income" perception have a considerable amount of spending power. Many of the senior fares offered aren't cheaper than the lowest discounted fare available in the market. They are sometimes more expensive, but are more flexible.

DeafFlyer

Missy,

It's probably my FT ID that's confusing you. I'm a wheelchair pax. I do require, on longer flights, some assistance. I did not mean I wanted them to determine anything on the phone. I was justommenting on the companion fare issue. I think the airlines should discount ot provide free tickets to a companion, for the reason I stated. I don't think they should be able to weasle out of it by a loophole in the ACAA rules. However, the determination of the need should not solely be up to the airline, or some method developed to determine need.

FlyingPenguin

Then I guess I wish airlines were to not care about me in the same way they don't care about parents . I'd certainly be happy if I could get a discount for my aide on international flights, since the double-fare to MEL is definitely not one of the benefits of having a long-distance relationship.

I wonder why the airlines don't look at it this way: if the number of disabled pax who take them up on a discounted companion fare is small, they won't lose much money on the discounted tickets. If they suddenly find they've got a lot more disabled pax, doesn't that mean they've found an underserved market and they're getting more revenue? And either way, I suspect that if an airline were to do this voluntarily rather than being forced by a government reg, said airline would find themselves with some very loyal customers who would sing its praises to their friends and family, disabled or not.

rkt10

I got an email from the Northwest Airlines Liaison person who still had to go get input from her colleagues. Clearly she is not the decision maker, and therefore has a primary responsibility to make the issue go away (my take on the matter).

I haven't called the contact from the Department of Transportation yet (since I was in the process of transporting Christine on another trip on American Airlines... we'll tackle them separately if the NWA situation comes out in her favor). Anyway I'll call the DOT guy this week.

So here's the Northwest email:

I am sorry that I have been unable to reach you by phone. I am leaving
this week for a two week vacation, so decided I will e-mail you today.
If you have questions feel free to call me tomorrow.


I discussed your questions with my colleagues and clarified our
obligations under the Air Carrier Access Act.


The law says that we must provide a ticket for an assistant only if we
determine that a passenger meeting the criteria below must travel with
an attendant, contrary to the passenger’s self assessment that he or she
is capable of traveling independently


(b)(2) a person who because of a mental disability, is unable to
comprehend or respond appropriately to safety instructions from carrier
personnel


(b)(3) a person with a mobility impairment so severe that the person is
unable to assist in his own evacuation of the aircraft


(b)(4) a person who has both severe hearing and severe vision
impairments, if the person cannot establish some means of communication
with carrier personnel adequate to permit transmission of the safety
briefing required


In other words, if a passenger says that they can travel alone, and we
refuse to accept them on safety grounds as indicated above, we must
provide an attendant. The attendant would serve only to assist in the
evacuation if there is an emergency. The law is clear that the airline
does not have to provide for personal services. In addition, the
airline may select the attendant and may assign an employee or a willing
fellow passenger, to be seated next to the passengers who has a
disability for aid in an emergency.


We do not make decisions for passengers regarding their ability to
travel alone, because these are decisions passengers needs to make
based on discussion with their medical professionals and family.
However, we are clear regarding what services we do and do not provide
and passengers need to take that information into account when making
their decision.


We have recently defined procedures for flight irregularities, and if a
passenger is traveling alone and needs extensive personal services
during the delay, we will contact the family, advise them of the
situation and work with the family in arranging any assistance needed.
The cost of those services will be borne by the family.


The above is very factual and detached, and I do not want to imply that
I am unaware of the expense and difficulty that arranging travel for
Christine presents to you and your family. Unfortunately, we do not
offer fares beyond the companion fares you have obtained. [CLARIFICATION: I haven't gotten any companion fares from NWA. Rather, I have paid current fares for my tickets to accompany my sister ]


I enjoyed speaking with you. If I can be of assistance in planning for
the travel or with any other questions, please feel free to contact me.


Sincerely,


Debby Reisinger
Supervisor/DOT Specialist, Customer Care
Northwest/KLM Airlines


More later, folks. Rita

mrspilot

Hi Rita,
Just wanted to be sure you noticed dream7, the great guy who supplied discounted PDA certs for you and your sister shortly after you first posted now has more PDA certs up for grabs. You may want to drop him a PM if you're interested in getting a couple more for your upcoming trips. ^ That dream7 is quite a guy! :-:

Passing By & Waving Hi at You & Christine in the FT Fog,

mrspilot

marcelin

To Rita and others: I know this is an old thread, but the issue is important and I want to offer a few observations.

1. When your civil rights are on the line, it's okay to seek general advice in a forum, but you should also check with a qualified advocate, and you should do so before you approach an airline. (I do not profess to be qualified. Perhaps others who have responded are. However, some of the responses were not substantial.)

2. When you seek accommodations from an airline, it's best not to start by suggesting that you would be willing to pay for the accommodations on your own.* Paying for two tickets might amount to a self-assessment of the passenger's disability. On the other hand, using a companion certificate might diminish the seriousness of the accommodation request, in the airline's eyes. Buying two tickets and using a companion certificate should be your last resort, your secret weapon!

3. Every person you spoke with at Northwest probably knew more than he or she admitted. It would seem to be in an airline's interest to discourage people with disabilities from flying, because accommodations cost money. The National Council on Disability says, again and again, that enforcement of the Air Carrier Access Act is lax. Deferring to a supervisor; checking with colleagues; making it seem as if a question has never been raised before; and giving familiar interpretations of rules; are all tactics that an airline representative might use if the airline wanted to shirk its legal responsibilities.

The message you report receiving from Debby Reisinger, Supervisor/DOT Specialist, Northwest Airlines leaves me with a lot of questions.

First, I think Northwest could have done a better job of explaining the difference between a personal care attendant and the type of attendant who is entitled to free transportation under Part 382.35. The proposed revision of Part 382 wisely switches to the term "safety assistant". For details, see the Federal Register. (Search inside the document for "safety assistant".)

Second, even though it seemed that Part 382.35 wouldn't help in your situation, Northwest might have mentioned all of the "safety assistant" selection options listed in the Department of Transportation's "New Horizons" brochure. I've underlined one that Northwest apparently left out. For clarity, substitute "safety assistant" (proposed new terminology) for "attendant" (current, ambiguous terminology).

"The airline can choose an attendant in a number of ways. It could designate an-off duty employee who happened to be traveling on the same flight to act as the attendant. The carrier or the passenger with a disability could seek a volunteer from among other passengers on the flight to act as the attendant. The carrier could provide a free ticket to an attendant of the passenger's choice for that flight segment. In the end, however, a carrier is not required to find or furnish an attendant." (Emphasis added.)

Here's a link to "New Horizons".

Third, as you can see, Northwest made quite a leap from "we must provide a ticket for [a safety assistant]" (early in the e-mail) to "we must provide [a safety assistant]" (later in the e-mail). Although that error would have been in your favor, it suggests that the person Northwest assigned to handle this very precise legal question was not very precise in her answers.

I think you should share your story with the Department of Transportation, as evidence of the hassles that people with disabilities go through when seeking accurate and timely information about their transportation-related rights.

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California, USA

* I am not suggesting taking advantage of an airline, of course. There are situations where all sorts of people (primarily people without disabililities, since they make up the majority of the traveling public!) do take advantage of transportation providers, by asking for more than what they are legally or contractually entitled to. I'm just suggesting that you let the airline make the first move.

rkt10

Dear Paul,
Thanks for bumping this thread, since I'd put aside the matter in place of other day-to-day issues. See, I did get a call back from that Debbie Reisinger from NWA but inadvertantly deleted all my voicemails (new phone) so I lost her telephone number.

I have to get back on the stick and get back in touch with the guy at the DOT. Something to get done this month some time.

I will keep people appraised of what comes next.
Rita