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Originally Posted by bhrubin
(Post 25827971)
It is possible that Eleven Madison Park is overrated--but I find that highly doubtful. I have too many friends who have dined there over the years and recently who also really know their fine dining, not to mention the restaurant is enormously acclaimed by not only Michelin but also the NYT, Pellegrino, and just about every rating that matters.
I've been to Daniel--last year--and it was overrated IMO, but not for its food. Its wine pairings were just OK IMO, and one was terrible. I actually had to refuse that wine pairing and make the sommelier replace it for everyone at our table. I've NEVER done that before. Then I noticed Daniel lost a Michelin star this year--and I wasn't surprised. I doubt that's true for Eleven Madison Park. I think your assessment lacks credibility. I also find your "in France" assumption to be wildly prejudiced, as there are far more 1 star restaurants in France that would never get a star in the USA--simply because Michelin doesn't rank the USA except for the SF Bay, Chicago, Vegas, and NYC. Michelin is overrepresented in Europe because (1) not every region's customer base buys into the Michelin rankings/criteria, and (2) Michelin needs to keep its biggest customer base (Europe) happy. If Michelin actually ranked the entire world, and had to maintain food quality/creativity standards across the world, Europe would pale in comparison to many other regions. Michelin is to food as Bordeaux is to wine--with an assumption that Old World is somehow always better than New World, despite the overwhelming evidence that both can be wonderful and the direction for both is New...and that sometimes the New World can trump the Old. Let's face it--the fact that Noma is only 2 Michelin stars is laughable...and an obvious embarrassment for Michelin. 1- No Michelin rating in Las vegas for 4 or 5 years.... 2- I confirm madison ...will have one michelin star in France.... maybe 1.5 I feel generous as I just had lunch 3- Daniel as well 1 star At the opposite : Gordon Ramsay NY would deserve 3 instead than 2 (before 0 then closed). |
Originally Posted by stimpy
(Post 25828082)
I've never been to 11 Madison or Daniel so no comment there. But I have met CGRA and I think you have erred in saying he lacks credibility. And I have to say in my opinion you aren't really appreciating all that fine dining is if you can't see the differences between European and US restaurants. This is common for Americans so don't worry. I'm American myself and it took a fair bit of time for me to fully appreciate fine French dining, as well as that of other countries. There are elements of really top quality at some US restaurants, but they generally, well almost always, do not have the complete package as a top Euro restaurant has. Anyone who has real experience at this can easily find faults at any US restaurant. But I try to not let it spoil my meal and just focus on the good parts.
You don't miss much:D |
If you are driving from Lyon to Marseille, I recommend Maison Pic (by restauratrice Anne-Sophie Pic) in Valence. Our lunch lasted an exquisite three hours.
Maison Pic was the top restaurant for me among many delightful meals during the entire year. |
Originally Posted by stimpy
(Post 25832910)
You know, there is a reason for this anomaly. Small town in France (and Belgium, etc) have examples of top level restaurants. For me the best restaurant in France is in the town of Chagny. However in small towns in the US the best restaurant is usually Cracker Barrel. Yes I'm sure you can find some good examples here and there, as you say Napa Valley. However the vast majority of the geography in the US is served by fast food restaurants, diners, and the occasional decent restaurant that isn't quite up to Michelin standards of quality.
There are many small towns in America with terrible dining. But to sum up all small town American dining in one broad stroke is very disappointing and inaccurate. There also are many small towns in America with top level restaurants. Newport Beach has Basilic, Laguna Beach has Studio at Montage, Costa Mesa has Marche Moderne, all within 15-20 min drive of us. Carmel (CA) has Bernardus Lodge's Lucia. Lummi Island (WA) has Willows. Fredericksburg (VA) has Peter Chang's. Boulder (CO) has Frasca. Oxford (MS) has City Grocery. Walland (TN) has the Barn at Blackberry Farm. Washington (VA) has the Inn at Little Washington. Pocantico Hills (NY) has Blue Hill. Pittsboro (NC) has Fearrington House. There also are tremendously good restaurants in small cities like Richmond (VA), Charlottesville (VA), Sleepy Hollow (NY), Hilton Head (SC), Healdsburg (CA), Lafayette (LA), Traverse City (MI), Naples (FL), Savannah (GA), Aspen (CO), Jackson (WY), Santa Fe (NM), etc. Hard to say if any or all have restaurants that qualify for 1 (or even 2) Michelin stars, but I know most will have several that would rank as Bib Gourmand. Europe developed differently than North America. As a result, it has many small towns relative to its size that developed excellent cuisine over a century if not many centuries. North America developed small towns before food culture, and food culture is certainly focused in our cities more than in Europe. Yet just like Europe, we have many resort locales in small towns/rural areas that offer tremendous dining, along with burgeoning foodie culture in more enlightened and progressive small towns (especially in small towns with excellent colleges and universities). With apologies, I'd say that general ignorance of many of America's great small towns and resort locations and their restaurants outside the normal purview of bigger cities is the only reason for such a comment. And if Michelin included the smaller cities in the USA, let alone all of the major cities, there would be no contest: the USA has FAR more excellent restaurants than does France. Sorry, but almost every one of Portland, San Diego, Irvine/Newport Beach, Phoenix, Seattle, Portland, Albuquerque/Santa Fe, Denver/Boulder, Kansas City, Detroit, Salt Lake City, Omaha, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, St. Louis, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Cincinnati, Louisville, Birmingham, Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh/Durham, Richmond, Cleveland, Nashville, Miami, Orlando, Tampa, Charleston, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Boston, etc will include at least a Michelin 1 star restaurant if not more...and every single one has several Bib Gourmands at the very least. Many will have 2 star restaurants. The contest isn't even close, I'm afraid. |
Originally Posted by bhrubin
(Post 25833222)
There also are many small towns in America with top level restaurants. Newport Beach has Basilic, Laguna Beach has Studio at Montage, Costa Mesa has Marche Moderne, all within 15-20 min drive of us. Carmel (CA) has Bernardus Lodge's Lucia. Lummi Island (WA) has Willows. Fredericksburg (VA) has Peter Chang's. Boulder (CO) has Frasca. Oxford (MS) has City Grocery. Walland (TN) has the Barn at Blackberry Farm. Washington (VA) has the Inn at Little Washington. Pocantico Hills (NY) has Blue Hill. Pittsboro (NC) has Fearrington House.
Europe developed differently than North America. As a result, it has many small towns relative to its size that developed excellent cuisine over a century if not many centuries. North America developed small towns before food culture, and food culture is certainly focused in our cities more than in Europe. Yet just like Europe, we have many resort locales in small towns/rural areas that offer tremendous dining, along with burgeoning foodie culture in more enlightened and progressive small towns (especially in small towns with excellent colleges and universities). With apologies, I'd say that general ignorance of many of America's great small towns and resort locations and their restaurants outside the normal purview of bigger cities is the only reason for such a comment. And if Michelin included the smaller cities in the USA, let alone all of the major cities, there would be no contest: the USA has FAR more excellent restaurants than does France. |
i think bhrubin's main point is re scores (including wine) not countries?
france and japan are examples of countries with food/dining cultures i recall andy hayler mentioning having a philosophical problem with sushi/tempura/etc restaurants |
CGRA, what are you including in "counter style restaurants" ?
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Originally Posted by superangrypenguin
(Post 25821567)
Silly me, I almost forgot one.
Din Tai Fung, in HKG was the best. I've been to the one in TPE, and SEA, and they weren't quite as good. The menu was the most extensive in HKG, which is weird because I thought they originated from TPE. |
Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri
(Post 25835815)
CGRA, what are you including in "counter style restaurants" ?
sorry : the bar |
Originally Posted by fastflyer
(Post 25832125)
If you are driving from Lyon to Marseille, I recommend Maison Pic (by restauratrice Anne-Sophie Pic) in Valence. Our lunch lasted an exquisite three hours.
Maison Pic was the top restaurant for me among many delightful meals during the entire year. She also has one in Paris which is less "elaborated" but still very good I don't know the one in Lausanne:( |
Posts that were primarily about the Michelin guide or Michelin guide-rated restaurants have been moved to http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/dinin...light=michelin
Please keep this thread on topic of your choices for "best restaurants in the world." If you are going to make your case based on the Michelin guides, then it's likely your post is best in the other thread. Thank you. cblaisd Co-Moderator, Dining Buzz |
Originally Posted by kerflumexed
(Post 25821779)
The Maisonette was one of my favorites and ranked as best in the country
Only restaurant I've ever been to where the sommelier argued with me when I returned a bottle of corked wine (and it was badly corked indeed). Colored my memory of the place considerably. |
Originally Posted by MaxBuck
(Post 25868715)
Ah, yes, the Maisonette.
Only restaurant I've ever been to where the sommelier argued with me when I returned a bottle of corked wine (and it was badly corked indeed). Colored my memory of the place considerably. |
Benu and Atelier Crenn in San Francisco
Just returned from a fine dining weekend in SF, where we tried Benu and Atelier Crenn. Both truly are world class. Both also are very pricey. We did the tasting menus with wine pairings at both, as we always do. At Crenn, I did the special wine pairing while my husband and friends did the regular wine pairing. (I'm a huge student and fan of wine.)
Benu is Korean/Asian-influenced California cuisine, and is without doubt the finest Asian inspired cuisine we've ever had outside of Asia. The wine (and beer) pairings were also extremely impressive. I could eat here on a monthly basis and never tire of it...though my bank account would! Atelier Crenn is very experimental California cuisine, with elements of molecular gastronomy and very avant-garde techniques/presentations. There were moments that reminded me of Alinea and a few that reminded even of Noma. It is more experimental in some ways and more traditional in others, but it certainly is world class. I am glad I dined here, but this is so experimental that I think I'd only return after several years. |
Originally Posted by bhrubin
(Post 25918587)
Just returned from a fine dining weekend in SF, where we tried Benu and Atelier Crenn. Both truly are world class. Both also are very pricey. We did the tasting menus with wine pairings at both, as we always do. At Crenn, I did the special wine pairing while my husband and friends did the regular wine pairing. (I'm a huge student and fan of wine.)
Benu is Korean/Asian-influenced California cuisine, and is without doubt the finest Asian inspired cuisine we've ever had outside of Asia. The wine (and beer) pairings were also extremely impressive. I could eat here on a monthly basis and never tire of it...though my bank account would! Atelier Crenn is very experimental California cuisine, with elements of molecular gastronomy and very avant-garde techniques/presentations. There were moments that reminded me of Alinea and a few that reminded even of Noma. It is more experimental in some ways and more traditional in others, but it certainly is world class. I am glad I dined here, but this is so experimental that I think I'd only return after several years. Atelier creen : Was it easy to book ? |
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