If the US can't respect foreigners. Put it in lock down.
If tourists don't tip me, I have no problem with that. Be happy they are customers at all.

You are visiting here, you, therefore, should follow the customs of this country. And when people visit the Netherlands, which I have done, we should follow the customs there. How is that difficult to understand?

While you are within your rights to behave that way, the point you end up making is not "this would have been a gesture of a appreciation and you've blown it," but rather "I'm a cheap (insert epithet here)."

Tipping is a customary and expected part of the cost of dining in here; there's a lot of room to argue exactly how much is appropriate, and room to "show your appreciation" by exceeding (or not, or being lower than that), but in the end if you don't tip at all (at a full service sitdown place) you are just being a free rider.

If you really want to send a message, complain to the waiter (or better yet, call over the manager to complain), and then leave a conspicuously subpar tip (rather than none.)

Thing is, you seem you want to force me and other foreigners to adjust. I on the other hand respect different cultures and that they might be unknowledgeable/uncomfortable with the culture of the country they are visiting. Therefore I do not want to mandate all visitors to act like locals if they don't feel like it. I don't care if you act like a local here as long as it's within my law. If I am not required to do anything, I will not if I am uncomfortable with it or simply do not agree with it.
I principally refuse to pay by standard if service is not proper. If service is exceedingly well, I tip more. If service is good/standard, I round up the sum. I do not work with percentages because with large sums that is ridiculous for me.
You should deserve a tip and it seems that it has become so standard for people, they also feel entitled when they have given bad service. In that case I'd rather spend my money elsewhere and forget about an arrogant service provider who can't even provide basic, courteous service.

If service is standard or better, I certainly tip. But leave that and the amount up to me and don't force it upon me. I find that insulting and demeaning. As if I am not able to myself and they have to tell me to.
If service is below par, I don't tip.

You are simply wrong and you can couch your extreme cheapness in all the arrogant and logic twisting verbiage you want, but remember you are denying a person a livable wage. And you are responsible for the tip being added to all bills, the practice you so seem to despise. I am done with you as you truly disgust me.

Fine. But I am not responsible for someones wage. The employer is. If you become so dependant on tips, seek another job. Don't forget that the vast majority of workers don't have any possibility on getting tips and yet manage to live on.
As long as service is basic and proper, I tip at least something. But I don't want to be forced to an amount.

In Manhattan, I double the tax for normal service, and tip 20% or more for extraordinary service (DH and I have tipped as much as 40%, in cash, to a waiter who really gave outstanding service; we also told his manager that our evening had been a delight in large part thanks to the waitstaff, and this waiter in particular), all based on pre-tax amounts. I don't think you should tip on the tax, but I could be wrong.

Just amazing. You know if you are a repeat customer at any restaurant in the US they are spitting, or worse, in your food. And that makes be happy.

The "Tip Included in the Bill" thread
 

Proud workers, I'm sure.

Ralph, I suspect that you are just a cheapskate that doesn't mind taking money from those who serve you as long as you get to save a few dollars. As you fully know, waitstaff are not paid even minimum wage as hourly pay but depend upon tips for the majority of their wages. In fact, they are automatically taxed on an imputed tip whether they receive it or not.

But if you are sincere and honestly believe that you have a right to exercise what you are calling your Dutch customs while in the US, the least you should do is to inform your server upfront about your view on tipping so that they can decide whether they want to take a chance on serving someone who may unilaterally decide to stiff them. Me, I wouldn't.

Yes, I agree it is unfair to be forced to give a tip to a service that does not deserve it. Tips should always be voluntary, if not then at least deserved.

The "Tip Included in the Bill" thread
 

'taking money'. It seems you all think the tip is for the server unless proven otherwise. In my common sense, it is still my money until I decide to give it.
And for the record, I tip 9/10 times unless service is crap. And I decide my own amount.
I have no problem with basic tipping. Just deciding for me.

As with a choice of aiming for 15% or aiming for 20%, tipping on the pretax or the after tax is fine either way.

I suspect like many folks online, he talks a grumpier game would describe his actions in person.

Tipping sucks. OTOH, unless you're going to open a restaurant and have all the service staff on salary, there's nothing much you can do about it.

in many european restaurants there is no need to tip, as help staff is properly compensated. seems to me like the restaurant is collecting the tip and paying the help a decent wage without your approval. by all means, short the bill by 20%.

No restaurant ( or any other business, for that matter ) should be hiring and paying it's employees on tips alone. Yes, I know it happens, but it shouldn't. That is KLflyerRalph's point, which is quite correct.

However, a waiter or waitress does not order restaurant supplies and foods stocks, cook, or prepare your meal. They prepare a patron's table, take the order, serve beverages and the selected meal. They are also trained and expected to voice any displeasure one has, if it occurs, on up to the next level.

If one has a problem with restaurant service, or the meal quality, take it up with the manager, before the bill is settled. That is the appropriate person to discuss and resolve any complaints.

so what. a "really good" waiting job generates over $100k/year. there are a lot of them. some in very strange places, like a marriot sit down table fast food restaurant. people should not be paid piecework, people should not be paid???????

I think you have misunderstood. Electing to withhold a tip to an hourly employee versus an employee working on tips alone.

My first point being that service employees should be paid a legal hourly wage, including benefits. Including health insurance coverage, unless that is covered by the country they reside in.

People working on tips alone are not generally covered by health insurance.

So if the fish, pasta, wine, or meal quality is bad, and you withhold a tip, who did you actually make you point to ? The person who is charge of ordering said items, or the poor waiter who does not ?

Marriot employees by the way are hired as either as salaried or hourly employees, including a company benefits package.

More importantly, is to address a complaint about service, or dining quality to the right person, my second point. If you withhold the tip to the waiter as you pay your bill, what have you accomplished ? The waiter just tells the manager that you are a "cheapskate " or something else equally descriptive to cover the situation. The word goes around, and perhaps a second look at your bill for your name to go in the mental black book is made. And believe me, most good restaurants know their customers: The good and the bad.

You have just injured yourself by not stating your problem, and if a repeat customer just marked yourself for the next time you visit.

If you don't speak up, the manager never hears your actual complaint, which if valid regarding dismal service, dirty linen, dirty cutlery, dirty china, poor food quality, the wrong meal served, etc. is never addressed as it should be.

Most restaurants today are quite sensitive to a patron or guest dining at a restaurant, leaving for an unknown reason but obviously upset ( no tip ), and then being blasted later online regarding the same incident, in detail.

The question thus arises: " Why didn't they say anything ? " Ergo, speak to the manager, and try and get the issue resolved at the time. It may not be the fault of the waiter.

Nobody in the restaurant industry works on tips alone -- even where the wages are sub-minimum, the employer is required to make up the difference to the federal (or higher state) minimum if the tips don't make it to minimum. There are quite a few states (including California, with 1/9th of the population) where tipped employees earn state minimum before tips.

In many states, they are. Of course, the legal minimum is not a living wage in many places, and even where it is a minimal living wage, it often won't be enough to attract decent workers.

Health insurance isn't federally mandatory for any employer in the US for another ~7 months, and an awful lot of restaurants have few enough employees that it won't be mandatory even next year. (There are some local health insurance requirements; you'll see a mandatory percentile fee posted on the menu at an awful lot of restaurants in San Francisco -- this isn't a city tax, but rather a protest against the city health insurance mandate that caught on with restaurant owners since it passes the blame more than just raising prices would.)

This is an excellent point.

...and if it IS the fault of the waiter, the manager is likely the right person to make sure that it doesn't happen again in the future.

nkedel;

I'm not just addressing this in North America, but also on an international level.

I do appreciate your informed insight on US federal, versus state regulations, which apparently vary state to state.

Elsewhere I have read ( when I could not sleep ) rather long legal treaties on the specific situation in San Francisco. There is still much on this topic in the internet news.

Correct me if I am wrong, but my reading was that the restaurant owners were including a fee or tax onto each bill for employees, that they were caught keeping as profit. I thought the District Attorney found a few guilty of that.

Was that not the case ?

Sorry but you are wrong. First, in the USA the IRS requires large restaurants to assume certain amount of gross sales for the tables served by a waiter as tips. The waiter pays self employment tax on that amount (just shy of 16%). Secondly, in a full service restaurant the waiter must "tip out" the bartender who makes the drinks whether or not he receives a tip. Finally, the waiter must tip out the host/hostess and busboys/busgirls in restaurants that have them. At some restaurants, the waiters even need to tip out the lower level kitchens staff.

I have two cousins who have waited tables on and off for their entire working lives. They absolutely HATE English, Scottish, and Welsh people sit down at a table they are waiting because they are going to get stiffed. They are half English so there is no prejudice here, just a sour taste because well the Scottish in particular do live up to their stereotype of being super cheap.

So be proud of the fact that you are stealing from the waiters who serve you for the $2 an change they are paid and freeload off the folks who do tip. Congratulations, you have much to be proud of!

That is the case, although I hadn't been aware of it:
http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog...on-surcharges/
http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog...-to-offenders/

Interesting that they're able to crack down on it; I'd always figured it was as much as scam as YQ (fuel surcharge on airline tickets.)

As an English person, in the UK by not leaving a tip, I am stating that the service was adequate, and not outstanding. If I complain, then the service is REALLY bad. If I PAY someone, it's because they've done something really personally wonderful.

I fail to see how it is my problem that waiting staff get screwed by their employer if I don't leave what I consider to be a completely optional service charge. If the employee has a grievance, then it should be with the employer, not me, and to accuse ME of stealing? sorry, what? I don't pay an optional fee, therefore I steal. How is that in the least bit logical in any other industry?
We, like most of the civilised world, have a minimum wage to ensure that workers are not slaves. If the US treats "tipping jobs" differently, then that is not my problem. What is worse, it is expected that I reward (pay) for someone if they provide a poor service. You may want me to cause a fuss to management, but when I pay for a meal, I expect a meal, in a reasonable state, in a reasonable time. nothing more, nothing less. I'm not paying to have an argument. I also fail to see why serving me an expensive dish is worth more to the person serving me than a cheap one. It's not like they're doing more work, is it? a plate is a plate, regardless of whether it has caviar-stuffed lobster or a big-mac on it. It's not my job to employ someone for a service when I've already paid for it. That's the restaurant's job.

If the US system is set up in a manner which requires irrational behaviour to function, "because that's the way it's always done", then that's not my problem. The only other times that "optional" charges are actually mandatory, are where you are involved in corruption and bribery to get things done.

All of the above said, when in the US, I pay the 15/17/18/20% is to avoid confrontation, and partially because the server is caught in the system and relatively powerless (but that doesn't stop them lobbying for a law change in a free country, does it), but that doesn't prevent me from begrudging the system in the first place. Besides, it gives me something to complain about in the pub when I get home :D

However, when in Rome...

I detest the practice of tipping, however in the days when I used to travel to the US I would tip in restaurants because, well, that's what you do. Like most residents of civilised countries I find the US disease of tipping anything that moves to be a mystery, so if anything I would overtip to avoid embarrassment.

If the tip was included in the bill, and this was clear before I dined, then so be it; I would pay exactly what was on the bill, not a cent more no matter how good the service was. I don't recall ever coming across this.

If I received a lecture about the necessity for tipping I would probably thank the lecturer, explain that I understand how the system works and then leave. Again, this had never happened to me.

I find it hard to believe that anyone who traveled to the US wouldn't know about tipping, particularly in restaurants. They mightn't know why, but they know that it needs to be done.

Conceptually the same in the UK, and doubtless elsewhere as well. Waiters are taxed on notional tipping amounts here as well.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/bens-...ps-bonuses.htm

The tip included in the bill is really only in exceptional circumstances: large parties (usually six or more) and on holidays -- Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's Eve -- when restaurants typically serve from a limited, price fixe menu and include a tip of 18-20% in the bill, something which is clearly stated when you make your reservation and on the menu itself.

This has never bothered me. It seems to me that if a server is willing to take the time and energy to work with a larger party (never an easy task) or to work a holiday (ugh!), then the restaurant management should set up the infrastructure to make life a little easier.

Brilliant. From HMRC;
Just imagine asking for the 'troncmaster' :p


Adey

^ Same here, that wouldn't bother me.