In the spirit of the recent thread Returning a Dish Because You Don't Like It- Should You Have to Pay For It? if you take a bottle of wine to a BYO restaurant and the waiter removes the cork and pours the wine only for you to discover that the wine has turned to vinegar, is the restaurant within its rights to charge you corkage? Would it make a difference if you bought a bottle of wine from the winelist? Is the corkage for opening the bottle and use of glassware or to compensate the restaurant for the lost profit margin because you aren't ordering any beverages?

Corkage is to cover the cost of materials and labour (nice glasses, corkscrew, dishwashing, etc.) and not to cover lost profit from the wine list. Of course some restaurants charge much more for BYO than others (and most don't allow it at all). The premise of your question is a fallacy; many peope BYO and also order beverages from the restaurant; I can't remember ever having BYO and not also drinking something else.

There are 4 questions - which one has the fallacious premise given that I actually mentioned use of glassware and corkscrew? If the fallacious premise in one of the questions is that you aren't ordering any beverages lets change it to you aren't ordering as many beverages as you would if you hadn't BYOd which doesn't really change the substance of the question.

It's not their fault the bottle you brought in was corked, so you should pay the corkage fee.

If they sold you the bottle that is a different story, and they should offer you another bottle of either the same wine or something else. Some places don't do that as they don't have the relationship with their distributors to recover the money, and some will argue it's not corked, that you just didn't like the wine so you should pay it, but those are just places you don't go back to again.

Corkage fees are just a profit center for them, I don't think it's to make up for the loss of you buying a bottle of wine (some fees are more than the profit they would get from a lower priced bottle) and it's not to just cover the cost in opening a bottle and washing two glasses. If those were real costs, at a place charging $25 for the corkage fee, diet coke would have to cost like $15 a glass to cover the same cost in washing the glass.

On a related note, what is the collective wisdom on tipping on corkage fees?

We were at dinner with another couple on Saturday evening and brought our own and had an interesting discussion after dinner about tipping on corkage fees. We had just split the bill, and I tipped our usual (15-18%) on the whole amount. Didn't realise that the other couple had tipped on the pre-corkage amount.

Incidentally, the other couple left their credit card in the restaurant, and the waitress came running out to drop their credit card back, and didn't seem at all upset with their tip.

So what is the norm? Do waitstaff generally expect tips on corkage?

I don't frequently bring wine, but when I have I have never been charged a corkage. I always offer to share the bottle with the waiter/waitstaff/kitchen staff.

A friend with a giant wine cellar always brings his own wine everywhere, and is generally not charged a corkage. I was with him once when we did get charged even after sharing with the staff, but that was just one time.

But 1 premise; that BYO causes a loss in restaurant profitability. I'd argue the opposite; BYO offered by a restaurant increases profitabilty even ignoring the corkage fee. It causes more business and more profit on other foods and drinks; when I have a good wine that I enjoy, more food, fun and frolic follows.

As for tipping, why not tip based on the corkage? Is that any different than the charges for rent, heat, electricity, etc. that every restaurant has built in to their menu prices? If you don't tip on corkage, then you need to work out the labour component of your food and tip by the hour

I've read many quotes from restaurant owners that corkage fees also contribute to the high cost of maintaining a good wine cellar. It is, in part, to make up for wine not purchased from the restaurant.

The question is an interesting one. I assume if your wine was corked you then ordered a similarly valued bottle off of the wine list? If so, I would likely not expect to be charged corkage, assuming the restaurant wanted me to return. It would certainly be within the restaurant's right to charge the fee, but it would certainly leave the same taste in my mouth as the corked wine.

Indeed - a premise that I hadn't even contemplated was open to question So thanks for clarifying your meaning.

I would however disagree with your argument. If offering BYO increases a restaurants profitability then why don't all restaurants allow BYO? Why do some that offer it seem to do so begrudgingly? Why do some restaurants only allow it on their traditionally slow nights eg Tues and Wed but not on weekends. If your contention was correct restaurants in the last category would see their profitability increase because of BYO and extend it to all nights of the week. It seems that either your argument is incorrect or a lot of restaurateurs need lessons in running a business (which is not beyond the realms of possibility)

The question was hypothetical - it occurred to me last week when I took a 1990 Mount Langi Ghiran Shiraz to a friend's place- the last of a dozen bottles of that vintage all of which were spectacular until this bottle. On removing the foil I noticed the top of the cork was stained and there was a hint of mould. It just got me thinking what would have happened if I had taken this bottle (as several of that dozen had been) to a restaurant. Would the corkage be due at the point of removing the foil?, removing the cork?, tasting the wine? An esoteric question no doubt but I thought I would canvass opinion.

I tend to share your view l'etoile both on what the corkage fee covers and whether it should be charged in this circumstance

I would assume in that case, if the person knew what they were doing, they would have removed the foil (though if they just cut the foil off the top they probably would have not seen it) they would have presented you the bottle and said "sir, this cork appears to have failed, would you like me to open it for you anyways?"

At that point I would think they would not charge you a corkage, just pick up the glasses and take them back. Once they open it however, I think the fee would be due them.

Did you have them open it? Seepage in and of itself is not the end of the world, it's possible the wine was still fine and just the stuff the pushed out was bad.

I often wonder whether I'm inhabiting a different planet from the majority and it's a time for mea culpa.

When I eat out - generally speaking I order house wine or something within distance from the price of it. After a lifetime of drinking wine I'm not convinced that there is a logical correlation between the taste in the mouth and the price on the menu of wine. Hence the house wine or close buy it syndrome. I drink really good medium priced wine at home every day - but wouldn't pay the restaurant price for what I drink at home if I drank out. Yet again the reason for drinking house wine or something close to it. And if it's crap - c'est la vie!

The other issue I have is tipping. This really shouldn't be done on the basis of percentages.

It seems to me that the person serving the food in a cheap restaurant is as poorly paid and is as desperate for your tip as those in an expensive restaurant. I don't eat in expensive restaurants much because we eat really well at home. But we travel a lot and when I eat out I don't overly calculate the tip based on a percentage of the total bill. To me it's a starting point. I base it on the service and the person serving me. This bizarrely means that when I've sometimes have had a rotten meal in a cheap restaurant I'll pay the bill but leave a decent cash tip for the person serving me. It's not their fault the food was crap - but if they befriended me, and amused me - and even more if they teased and insulted me .... in a humorous way - then I'm a sucker for outstanding personality. I really love that. So sometimes I've left a tip that's 50% or more of the bill - in cash. It's the pleasure, and entertainment that the person has given. I've been working in bars and at table - so has my family - so I think I understand these things.

My hope is that people that eat out relax a bit and destress themselves. If they bring a bottle of wine that is undrinkable - pay the corkage and leave a tip if the person has done a tippable job and what the restaurant and person serving you has done has been nothing to do with the crappy wine or otherwise you bought with. So pass through life with a generous and realistic disposition. Tipping is a voluntary tax on those people in the fortunate postion of being able to afford to do so. So please - just pay up and think yourself fortunate to have such difficult options and choices.

I opened the bottle myself and the wine was probably fit for tenderizing elephant hide but not much else

I have a related question.

If at a restaurant, you have a second bottle of wine, should you be charged a second corkage fee?

It depends on the restaurant. I've seen some that charge per bottle, some that don't charge for the first but charge for any others, some that never charge, and others that only charge one fee for however many you want to enjoy.

There's no right answer, it's strictly what the policy of the restaurant is.

I have a friend who opened a place, and the two decisions he worried the most over, asked future customers, checked everybody around him, were which four beers on tap he would carry (only four taps) and the corkage fees.

He decided not to charge at all.