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Nov 11, 2007, 10:11 pm
#46
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 762
Jeff:
I agree with several posters about letting us who what it takes to qualify for 4th tier. Wouldn't this help drive incremental volume for Delta as passengers close to qualifying channel more dollars towards Delta?
I am not 4th tier. Here are some of my stats:
2007 MQM: 196K
2007 AMEX Delta Base Spending (2 business + 1 personal): 300K
-- This doesn't count any AMEX bonuses
However, most of my travel (since I'm paying for it) is on LUT tickets.
I flew enough WN this year to earn a Comp Pass (100 credits). My point in referencing WN, is that I would certainly channel some of this to Delta if I new I could reach 4th tier. But, currently the marginal benefit of traveling on Delta is lower than the saving from flying WN for a fair percentage of my flights out of SLC.
So .... let us know what it takes to earn 4th tier ... Win, Win!
Happydad
I agree with several posters about letting us who what it takes to qualify for 4th tier. Wouldn't this help drive incremental volume for Delta as passengers close to qualifying channel more dollars towards Delta?
I am not 4th tier. Here are some of my stats:
2007 MQM: 196K
2007 AMEX Delta Base Spending (2 business + 1 personal): 300K
-- This doesn't count any AMEX bonuses
However, most of my travel (since I'm paying for it) is on LUT tickets.
I flew enough WN this year to earn a Comp Pass (100 credits). My point in referencing WN, is that I would certainly channel some of this to Delta if I new I could reach 4th tier. But, currently the marginal benefit of traveling on Delta is lower than the saving from flying WN for a fair percentage of my flights out of SLC.
So .... let us know what it takes to earn 4th tier ... Win, Win!
Happydad
Nov 12, 2007, 6:40 am
#47
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2000
Programs: DL FO, Marriott Gold, SPG Gold
Posts: 12,003
Jeff, there is an old advertising slogan that says, "An educated consumer is your best customer". @:-)
Nov 12, 2007, 11:47 am
#48
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Massachusetts, USA; AA Plat, DL GM and Flying Colonel; Bonvoy Platinum
Posts: 24,233
Jeff,
A lot of us here have worked for corporations, drunk the corporate Kool-Aid, sung the company song and generally believed that our employer surpasses all others in its industry segment. We couldn't understand why this wasn't as obvious to everyone else. We took it as a personal insult whenever a customer or an external industry observer suggested otherwise. This is normal. It's the only reason we can go to work every morning.
Many of us have since left those corporations. Stripped of the blinders, we have come to realize that our customers' and those observers' perceptions were closer to the truth than our own.
If a reasonably large collection of Delta's best customers has a near-universal perception that the worth of DL miles has been downgraded, and is willing to go on record (even anonymously; it's not hard to find out who a lot of us really are) here, I would urge you to bear this lesson in mind. Rationalizations that work inside the corporate structure are simply that. We know you have to buy into them to some extent, but that needn't prevent you from seeing the reality when it's pointed out. That reality is what we see out here. It's not as pretty.
Whether you can admit this in public, point it out to your management so something will happen, or want to as it may be a career-limiting move, are separate issues. We understand that too. We are simply asking you to please not insult our intelligence, doubt that we are more objective than anyone inside DL (yourself included), or question that we fundamentally want DL to do well.
A lot of us here have worked for corporations, drunk the corporate Kool-Aid, sung the company song and generally believed that our employer surpasses all others in its industry segment. We couldn't understand why this wasn't as obvious to everyone else. We took it as a personal insult whenever a customer or an external industry observer suggested otherwise. This is normal. It's the only reason we can go to work every morning.
Many of us have since left those corporations. Stripped of the blinders, we have come to realize that our customers' and those observers' perceptions were closer to the truth than our own.
If a reasonably large collection of Delta's best customers has a near-universal perception that the worth of DL miles has been downgraded, and is willing to go on record (even anonymously; it's not hard to find out who a lot of us really are) here, I would urge you to bear this lesson in mind. Rationalizations that work inside the corporate structure are simply that. We know you have to buy into them to some extent, but that needn't prevent you from seeing the reality when it's pointed out. That reality is what we see out here. It's not as pretty.
Whether you can admit this in public, point it out to your management so something will happen, or want to as it may be a career-limiting move, are separate issues. We understand that too. We are simply asking you to please not insult our intelligence, doubt that we are more objective than anyone inside DL (yourself included), or question that we fundamentally want DL to do well.
Nov 13, 2007, 3:30 pm
#49
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 408
Great observation,but I doubt if Delta (He) will ever revisit these Crappy new policies they are intent on implementing.Devaluation is the perversion of the time.
Nov 13, 2007, 5:26 pm
#50
Moderator: Coupon Connection & S.P.A.M
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
Programs: Destination Unknown, TSA Disparager Diamond (LTDD)
Posts: 57,953
Nov 14, 2007, 10:17 am
#51
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
SkyChoice Changes … It’s gotten quite a bit from the press and on flyertalk and I understand most is negative. As much as I realize that no one wants to believe me, and that some will never trust me, the reality is that the change is immaterial overall and will not devalue the currency. It would not be in my or Delta’s best interest to do anything that would have a material effect on the value of the currency, for a program that drives many billions of dollars in incremental business. Also, like most customer-oriented organizations in the airline industry, your job is a balance of giving and taking. This was a giveback to our revenue management organization to help protect the most valuable and profitable flights where we can fill the aircraft will full-fare paying customers, and in exchange, I believe got something bigger. The problem right now is that the customer takeaway is public, but the customer giveback is not. Once everything comes out and the SkyChoice change is in place, then maybe you’ll let me continue the debate?
Nov 14, 2007, 1:22 pm
#52
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: NYC
Programs: AA ExecPlat; AF Gold; UA GS; Hyatt L. Globalist; Marriott Plat; Hilton Diamond; National EE
Posts: 6,164
What did SkyMiles customers get in exchange for the takeaway-from-the-customer and giveback-to-revenue-management deal? Less of a hit to standard award availability than revenue-management's more extreme push? Well, that would be my guess in this increasingly Leo Mullinsesque environment.
Nov 14, 2007, 9:29 pm
#53
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: LHR / BHX / MAN / ATL
Programs: DL DM 2MM - IHG Diamond
Posts: 4,053
OK, let's see if I got this right. There's this not quite (but almost) secret super-duper ultra elite level with really great (but not too well defined) perks that DL will give you for reaching a secret threshold of some undefined combination of miles flown, money spent on tix, and/or Amex charges...
Nov 16, 2007, 1:17 pm
#54
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: New Smyrna Beach, FL, USA
Posts: 15
While we discuss higher incentives, I’ll briefly highlight our unpublished 4th tier program. It obviously exists, and there is some rationale for how people get in. That rationale is unpublished, but is based on total revenue (including air travel, co-brand card spend and partnership usage). We also include a variable around the actual revenue per mile flown (a.k.a. yield), which ensures that the customers who pay very high fares or who fly often in First, Business and Premium Coach fares, get in. This would mean that a customer who flies 125K MQMs on primarily Business and First Class fares could get in, where a customer who flies 150K MQMs primarily in lower coach fares, probably won’t get in.
Jeff
MANY times during calls w/ Res. agents (many international / domestic
mixed itineraries took them 30-60 minutes to set up, not a good use
of either of our time, one would think it would be more efficient), that
it'd be nice if their was a "4th tier" like UA has, and they basically
said it didn't exist. I don't mind so much that I don't qualify at 200,000
miles in one year, including 5 M-class tickets to BOM and one I class...
(ok, I mind a little ;-)), but to be told it doesn't exist, or that I can't
find out what I need to do to get selected (do I need to change all
my Ms to Is, do I need more LUTs to be Fs?), and whats in it for me
if I do make it, that really hurts my feelings.
I love flying DL international, and encourage others to do the same.
I think DLs BE is superior to AA/UA business, and less expensive then
their international First... But this makes me wonder how much you
value me (and others like me) as a customer.
Wanna incent my behavior to make you more money??? Tell me what
I have to do, and what I get for doing it.
No, I don't want to use the DL Amex, or the DL partner airlines or ...
I just want to fly DL, where you make the most $$$ from me.
Can we do that???
Nov 16, 2007, 1:38 pm
#55
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ATL
Programs: DL PM, Marriott PLT
Posts: 43
Jeff,
I am a little concerned about this EP thing. It's hard for me to chase a moving target. I fully understand the want to recognize your biggest spenders. But why do you want to do that? Only one reason to encourage future spending. Give me an incentive. I am not beyond buying a higher fare if I a close to the cutoff. But I don't know where the cutoff is. Pretty much I travel out of the most expensive domestic market, CVG. But that wasn't good enough last year. I am a lowly PM/MM. I don't know if I missed it by a bunch or $3 of revenue. I know that I don't have a Delta Amex...which I think it about the most foolish card that a PM can have. I think it is sad that flying your airline EVERY TIME (OK, I slipped a codeshare on NW in there once) isn't enough. I do want EP status but I can't chase my tail.
I am a little concerned about this EP thing. It's hard for me to chase a moving target. I fully understand the want to recognize your biggest spenders. But why do you want to do that? Only one reason to encourage future spending. Give me an incentive. I am not beyond buying a higher fare if I a close to the cutoff. But I don't know where the cutoff is. Pretty much I travel out of the most expensive domestic market, CVG. But that wasn't good enough last year. I am a lowly PM/MM. I don't know if I missed it by a bunch or $3 of revenue. I know that I don't have a Delta Amex...which I think it about the most foolish card that a PM can have. I think it is sad that flying your airline EVERY TIME (OK, I slipped a codeshare on NW in there once) isn't enough. I do want EP status but I can't chase my tail.
- ZERO international flights on Delta
- I don't currently use and never plan on using the Delta AMEX
- I flew about 150,000 MQM last year and spent about $50,000 on Delta flights, fees, etc.
- I fly out of Atlanta
- I bought a mix of fares but most were purchased less than 14 days in advanced so LUT fares were probably a small percentage of my overall tickets
- I had quite a few flights in the Southeast where I probably paid close to $1.00 per actual flight mile
- I don't buy tickets for anyone else but I control all of my own travel and can change airlines at anytime
- I don't book any hotels or cars through Delta, just flights
Not sure what this year will hold but my overall Delta flying and total spend has gone up substantially so I am keeping my fingers crossed. I hope this helps.
Nov 16, 2007, 1:47 pm
#56
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Atlanta
Programs: DL:PM - Reserve, 2MM, FC, RW; HH: SILVER MR: SILVER
Posts: 1,225
Nov 19, 2007, 9:01 pm
#57
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: ATL
Posts: 637
I would be happy to tolerate all of the SkyMiles changes if Delta would do one thing. Fix the international (non) upgrade system.
Stop issuing worthless PMUs. Start a program where you can use SkyMiles on day of flight to upgrade to BE if there are unused BE seats. Stop this idiotic open Z fare seat requirement even when the BE cabin is checked in and seats remain.
I know friends and colleagues who fly UA and AA internationally. It is like they and I are in different universes. A UA 1k regularly getting complementary upgrades to business when flying full Y fares on transpacific flights. An AA EP getting a complementary upgrade to business on Qantas from LAX to MEL.
I watched numerous complementary day of flight upgrades processed by Air France gate agents working a DL flight in CDG.
But just try to retire 25,000 SkyMiles off Delta's liabilities to upgrade from an M-class fare which cost 2X the lowest coach fare.
Delta's domestic F upgrades for FFs are the best in the industry, but Delta's J upgrades for FFs are the worst in the industry.
I am not asking for complementary international upgrades. But I do think the ability to purchase upgrades with SkyMiles should be a real possibility, not a myth.
Stop issuing worthless PMUs. Start a program where you can use SkyMiles on day of flight to upgrade to BE if there are unused BE seats. Stop this idiotic open Z fare seat requirement even when the BE cabin is checked in and seats remain.
I know friends and colleagues who fly UA and AA internationally. It is like they and I are in different universes. A UA 1k regularly getting complementary upgrades to business when flying full Y fares on transpacific flights. An AA EP getting a complementary upgrade to business on Qantas from LAX to MEL.
I watched numerous complementary day of flight upgrades processed by Air France gate agents working a DL flight in CDG.
But just try to retire 25,000 SkyMiles off Delta's liabilities to upgrade from an M-class fare which cost 2X the lowest coach fare.
Delta's domestic F upgrades for FFs are the best in the industry, but Delta's J upgrades for FFs are the worst in the industry.
I am not asking for complementary international upgrades. But I do think the ability to purchase upgrades with SkyMiles should be a real possibility, not a myth.
Nov 20, 2007, 2:57 am
#58
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NOLA
Programs: DL PM and some other junk I hardly use...
Posts: 66
Jeff,
A lot of us here have worked for corporations, drunk the corporate Kool-Aid, sung the company song and generally believed that our employer surpasses all others in its industry segment. We couldn't understand why this wasn't as obvious to everyone else. We took it as a personal insult whenever a customer or an external industry observer suggested otherwise. This is normal. It's the only reason we can go to work every morning.
Many of us have since left those corporations. Stripped of the blinders, we have come to realize that our customers' and those observers' perceptions were closer to the truth than our own.
If a reasonably large collection of Delta's best customers has a near-universal perception that the worth of DL miles has been downgraded, and is willing to go on record (even anonymously; it's not hard to find out who a lot of us really are) here, I would urge you to bear this lesson in mind. Rationalizations that work inside the corporate structure are simply that. We know you have to buy into them to some extent, but that needn't prevent you from seeing the reality when it's pointed out. That reality is what we see out here. It's not as pretty.
Whether you can admit this in public, point it out to your management so something will happen, or want to as it may be a career-limiting move, are separate issues. We understand that too. We are simply asking you to please not insult our intelligence, doubt that we are more objective than anyone inside DL (yourself included), or question that we fundamentally want DL to do well.
A lot of us here have worked for corporations, drunk the corporate Kool-Aid, sung the company song and generally believed that our employer surpasses all others in its industry segment. We couldn't understand why this wasn't as obvious to everyone else. We took it as a personal insult whenever a customer or an external industry observer suggested otherwise. This is normal. It's the only reason we can go to work every morning.
Many of us have since left those corporations. Stripped of the blinders, we have come to realize that our customers' and those observers' perceptions were closer to the truth than our own.
If a reasonably large collection of Delta's best customers has a near-universal perception that the worth of DL miles has been downgraded, and is willing to go on record (even anonymously; it's not hard to find out who a lot of us really are) here, I would urge you to bear this lesson in mind. Rationalizations that work inside the corporate structure are simply that. We know you have to buy into them to some extent, but that needn't prevent you from seeing the reality when it's pointed out. That reality is what we see out here. It's not as pretty.
Whether you can admit this in public, point it out to your management so something will happen, or want to as it may be a career-limiting move, are separate issues. We understand that too. We are simply asking you to please not insult our intelligence, doubt that we are more objective than anyone inside DL (yourself included), or question that we fundamentally want DL to do well.
Nov 20, 2007, 7:25 am
#59
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DTW
Programs: DL DM, Starwood Plat, Hertz 5*
Posts: 288
I know friends and colleagues who fly UA and AA internationally. It is like they and I are in different universes. A UA 1k regularly getting complementary upgrades to business when flying full Y fares on transpacific flights. An AA EP getting a complementary upgrade to business on Qantas from LAX to MEL.
I disagree, giving complimentary international upgrades would devalue DL's Business Class. For those that pay for J tickets (including myself) for TATL flights, I would certainly hope that I am not paying for someothing that is handed out for free. I am sure that people would stop paying for business class and just try to get a comp. upgrade.
However I do agree that DL needs to fix the PMU's. They need to be more flexible so we can actually use them. In my opinion if they "have" to be Y,B, or M, one should be able to upgrade with a PMU if J inventory is available.
Nov 20, 2007, 8:43 am
#60
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: NYC
Programs: AA EXP / LT PLT / 3MM, Marriott LT Gold
Posts: 35,389