The other side of the story!, LAUGH!!
Jan 30, 2001, 12:20 pm
#31
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Winter Garden, FL
Programs: Delta DM-3MM United Gold-MM Marriott Lifetime Titanium Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 13,498
I fly through ATL quite frequently and don't have serious problems there. I don't believe that this has very much to do with Delta's customer relations problems. Just my opinion.
Bruce
Bruce
Jan 30, 2001, 12:55 pm
#32
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: AUS
Programs: DL Flying Colonel
Posts: 4,023
Bruce, I agree. The only thing I don't like about Atlanta is it is where most of the bad DL decisions are made.
Jan 30, 2001, 2:37 pm
#33
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: NYC
Programs: UA/1K, DL/PM, AA/PLT, NW/SLV; SW/PLT, HH/DIA
Posts: 1,732
I gotta chime in on this. I connected through ATL around 30 times last year, and have no problems with it. It's not as nice as CVG, but I'd rather connect there than in SLC.
ATL is actually a really well laid-out airpotr when you consider how much traffic goes through it.
Bear in mind that "moving" a hub is a monumental undertaking. Just getting the regulatory approval to build a new runway at an airport can take 3+ years -- look at the Runway #3 proposal at BOS. The cost of moving an operating the size of ATL would be measured in billions of dollars. Then there's the issue of getting government approval to transfer all of the international and slot-conrolled frequencies. Then the issue of hiring and training staff. Think about how many people DL employes at ATL.
It ain't gonna happen.
ATL is actually a really well laid-out airpotr when you consider how much traffic goes through it.
Bear in mind that "moving" a hub is a monumental undertaking. Just getting the regulatory approval to build a new runway at an airport can take 3+ years -- look at the Runway #3 proposal at BOS. The cost of moving an operating the size of ATL would be measured in billions of dollars. Then there's the issue of getting government approval to transfer all of the international and slot-conrolled frequencies. Then the issue of hiring and training staff. Think about how many people DL employes at ATL.
It ain't gonna happen.
Jan 30, 2001, 2:57 pm
#34
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: GSP (Greenville, SC)
Programs: DL Gold Medallion; UA Premier Executive; WN sub-CP; AA sub-Gold
Posts: 13,393
Even if Delta could move their ATL hub elsewhere for free, it would still be a dumb idea. A successful hub has a high percentage of O&D passengers (origin & destination, as opposed to connecting). Unsuccessful hubs (financially speaking) just connect passengers.
If O&D traffic wasn't valuable, you would see large hubs in the middle of nowhere. You see hubs in large cities because that's where the big profits are, not in solely connecting passengers.
And why are O&D passengers in hubs more valuable than connecting passengers? Because many people willingly pay more for non-stop flights, which is what a hub provides.
If O&D traffic wasn't valuable, you would see large hubs in the middle of nowhere. You see hubs in large cities because that's where the big profits are, not in solely connecting passengers.
And why are O&D passengers in hubs more valuable than connecting passengers? Because many people willingly pay more for non-stop flights, which is what a hub provides.
Jan 30, 2001, 3:31 pm
#35
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: EWR/PHL
Posts: 88
Move DL's hub out of ATL??!! You've got to be kidding. As the arlier post said, a hub has to have a big local flying base, and Atlanta is all of that. Granted it is not the nice to Chicago or NY, but it is much bigger than those other Southeast US airports being mentioned.
From a hub-and-spoke airline's viewpoint, ATL's design is perfect. The island design has 18 entry/exit points. Pushback doesn't usually stop planes from passing by since there are 2 lanes between islands. The runways don't intersect and are well-spaced. All this means that an airline can land and takeoff a ton of flights within a relatively short window without causing tarmac jams. These banks of planes provide the connections that are the heart of DL's network.
As an airline analyst said, "This is a network business." No matter how superior an airlines operations and services are, it is the network and number of destinations that drive passengers to an airline. For years, UA has finished at or near the bottom in on-time percentage, baggage handling, complaints, and customer-service metrics. Yet it has the largest revenue of any US airline. Why? It flies everywhere people want to go to - US, So Am, Europe, Asia. Its hubs in the US are beautifully placed to create the NW.
Yes, connecting from B1 to A22 at ATL is a pain. The people mover, although efficient, can get to you after sometime. The design is a pain (compared to, say, DFW) for local passengers. However, I doubt if many passengers consider the hub airport layout as criteria for airline selection when given the frequencies and NW that DL provides out of ATL. Weather may be a consideration (I'll always fly AA through DFW rather than ORD in the winter) but at ATL that is not much of an issue.
From a hub-and-spoke airline's viewpoint, ATL's design is perfect. The island design has 18 entry/exit points. Pushback doesn't usually stop planes from passing by since there are 2 lanes between islands. The runways don't intersect and are well-spaced. All this means that an airline can land and takeoff a ton of flights within a relatively short window without causing tarmac jams. These banks of planes provide the connections that are the heart of DL's network.
As an airline analyst said, "This is a network business." No matter how superior an airlines operations and services are, it is the network and number of destinations that drive passengers to an airline. For years, UA has finished at or near the bottom in on-time percentage, baggage handling, complaints, and customer-service metrics. Yet it has the largest revenue of any US airline. Why? It flies everywhere people want to go to - US, So Am, Europe, Asia. Its hubs in the US are beautifully placed to create the NW.
Yes, connecting from B1 to A22 at ATL is a pain. The people mover, although efficient, can get to you after sometime. The design is a pain (compared to, say, DFW) for local passengers. However, I doubt if many passengers consider the hub airport layout as criteria for airline selection when given the frequencies and NW that DL provides out of ATL. Weather may be a consideration (I'll always fly AA through DFW rather than ORD in the winter) but at ATL that is not much of an issue.
Jan 30, 2001, 3:40 pm
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: He who dies with the most miles wins!!
Programs: WorldPerks Demoted again to SE, DL 3.1MM Hilton Diamond, SPG Gold
Posts: 11,674
I thought that this was a discussion of http://www.planebusiness.com
Delta is not going to pull out of ATL, let's get back on topic.
Delta is not going to pull out of ATL, let's get back on topic.
Jan 30, 2001, 5:20 pm
#37
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Niceville, FL, USA
Posts: 2,793
OK, I'm out of it.
Jan 31, 2001, 7:30 am
#38
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lancaster, SC
Posts: 193
Abagail,
You make it sound as if jumping from A concourse's end to B's is the worst that happens. ATL connections are not limited to A-B. As Delta refuses to provide normal service to a furiously growing Myrtle Beach area, I am stuck taking that rotten, cancel/delay-ridden ASA, which invariably flies to the very end of C concourse. A connect in B is easy due to the underground sidewalk, but usually when I am forced to take ASA/Delta by my company, I am flying out of the "E" Concourse overseas or to Portland OR. I have to take long layovers because every time I tried to take the 50-minute connection I would race to the E gate and get there about 2 minutes before the door closed. So now I have 2-1/2 hour layovers for no reason other than the stinking ATL airport is overgrown beyond belief AND has no efficient means to get people up and down those mile-long Concourse ends. (Delta's pathetic 'Mis-Connection' partners are a contributing factor, though.)
------------------
"You can never have too much Reverb."
You make it sound as if jumping from A concourse's end to B's is the worst that happens. ATL connections are not limited to A-B. As Delta refuses to provide normal service to a furiously growing Myrtle Beach area, I am stuck taking that rotten, cancel/delay-ridden ASA, which invariably flies to the very end of C concourse. A connect in B is easy due to the underground sidewalk, but usually when I am forced to take ASA/Delta by my company, I am flying out of the "E" Concourse overseas or to Portland OR. I have to take long layovers because every time I tried to take the 50-minute connection I would race to the E gate and get there about 2 minutes before the door closed. So now I have 2-1/2 hour layovers for no reason other than the stinking ATL airport is overgrown beyond belief AND has no efficient means to get people up and down those mile-long Concourse ends. (Delta's pathetic 'Mis-Connection' partners are a contributing factor, though.)
------------------
"You can never have too much Reverb."
Jan 31, 2001, 12:55 pm
#39
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Posts: 51
Well. I guess I've been quiet long enough. I'm one of those guys who's always loved Delta, flown Delta whenever possible, and would have quickly stood up for Delta and the great service they've always provided (hence my FlyerTalk handle - deltadave). That was until things started changing the past couple of years and especially the past nine months.
Here's a little background on me and why I'm changing (albeit sadly) my airline allegiance.
(1)My father-in-law is a retired Delta airline mechanic.
(2)I lived in East Texas for about seven years, 1982-1989, when I began flying more frequently (as such, my choices were Delta or American out of DFW - and as I didn't fly enough at that point to get status, and, as American's miles expired every 3 years no matter what - Delta got the chance to earn my business).
(3)For the past 21 years I've worked in store management for Wal-Mart (1978-1990) and for a non-profit ministry organization in Colorado Springs, CO (1990-Present). Both of these organizations "require" purchasing the best-priced ticket (or at least close to it).
(4)I have been SM with Delta for the past three years (fly enough to get "status" with only one airline per year).
(5)I travel internationally usually once or twice per year.
(6)I book travel for as many as a dozen other employeese of my company on a fairly consistent basis (both domestic and international).
With that said, here are the things that have led me to "switch" my frequent flyer allegiance:
(1)Delta's L-class ticket policy (that was instituted several years ago) has reduced my upgrade possibilities to nil. I've only been able to upgrade three RT's in the past two years (and that was due to several Delta K-fare sales that I jumped on and one last-minute oversees M-class fare that I was able to use a "now extinct for SM's" SWU on). As I watch all of my 800 Mile Upgrade points expire and disappear every January 1, I have to ask myself, what good are they?
(2)With the loss of old SkyMile partner airlines such as SwissAir and Austrian (both of whom I loved flying on in a least one direction to or from my European trips), I'm now stuck with coach on Delta, Air France, or CZA (none of which come close to SwissAir, Austrian, Lufthansa, or British Airways when comparing their coach service).
(3)With increasing trans-Pacific travel, Delta can only get me to Japan (unless I want to completely trust my life to God - which I do anyway - without having to tempt Him by flying on Korean).
(4)Recently tried to "cash in" some of my hard-earned 210K+ SkyMiles for a tenth anniversary trip with my wife to Costa Rica this coming April (was willing to spend my miles to fly either coach or Biz-Elite; gave them a month window within which to work a 10-day trip; and as a SM, thinking that their no blackout date rule for Elites meant something). Nothing doing. No seats available in either coach or Biz-Elite for the entire month. Miff'ed beyond words I called British Airways and cashed in BA miles for two Business-class tickets on American for the same time-frame - with better connections and for LESS miles.
(4)Delta's current labor troubles with their pilots, mechanics, and FA's has already caused a 2-3% reduction in flights offered since November. And, it leads me to believe that booking major travel on Delta in the coming year is going to make Delta's 2001 (and possibly beyond) look like United's mid-2000 problems.
(5)With United's new premium coach seating for Mileage Plus elite's (which I have qualified for until 2/2002), American's new roomier seating throughtout coach, Continental's better service and rare weather-related problems when connecting through IAH, Delta's coach-class seating and DFW weather hassles have also put them at a competitive disadvantage.
(6)Despite all of the above (and the fact, that I've only taken ONE RT on Delta since June - accumulating just under 6K for all of 2000), they have just quietly without so much as a letter or any other kind of communication comp'ed me back to what is now an absolutely worthless (other than the 25% "unredeemable" bonus miles that I'd earn per trip) SM status for 2001. I guess they're "rewarding" me for my long-term loyalty to Delta. My current feelings are - it's way too little and way too late because of the lack of business acumen shown by management to address the real issues of those of us SM's, GM's & even PM's who are "walking with our feet".
Well, there's my "dump truck". And, despite all of the above, I REALLY WANT to continue calling Delta "my airline". I signed the "Save SkyMiles" petition months ago and have tried to keep an open mind - waiting and hoping that Delta would get their ship righted.
However, my options now seem to be down to what to change my FlyerTalk handle to. Can anybody help me figure out how to change from "deltadave" to something more appropriate?
I'm sorry, Delta. I "loved" you guys!
Here's a little background on me and why I'm changing (albeit sadly) my airline allegiance.
(1)My father-in-law is a retired Delta airline mechanic.
(2)I lived in East Texas for about seven years, 1982-1989, when I began flying more frequently (as such, my choices were Delta or American out of DFW - and as I didn't fly enough at that point to get status, and, as American's miles expired every 3 years no matter what - Delta got the chance to earn my business).
(3)For the past 21 years I've worked in store management for Wal-Mart (1978-1990) and for a non-profit ministry organization in Colorado Springs, CO (1990-Present). Both of these organizations "require" purchasing the best-priced ticket (or at least close to it).
(4)I have been SM with Delta for the past three years (fly enough to get "status" with only one airline per year).
(5)I travel internationally usually once or twice per year.
(6)I book travel for as many as a dozen other employeese of my company on a fairly consistent basis (both domestic and international).
With that said, here are the things that have led me to "switch" my frequent flyer allegiance:
(1)Delta's L-class ticket policy (that was instituted several years ago) has reduced my upgrade possibilities to nil. I've only been able to upgrade three RT's in the past two years (and that was due to several Delta K-fare sales that I jumped on and one last-minute oversees M-class fare that I was able to use a "now extinct for SM's" SWU on). As I watch all of my 800 Mile Upgrade points expire and disappear every January 1, I have to ask myself, what good are they?
(2)With the loss of old SkyMile partner airlines such as SwissAir and Austrian (both of whom I loved flying on in a least one direction to or from my European trips), I'm now stuck with coach on Delta, Air France, or CZA (none of which come close to SwissAir, Austrian, Lufthansa, or British Airways when comparing their coach service).
(3)With increasing trans-Pacific travel, Delta can only get me to Japan (unless I want to completely trust my life to God - which I do anyway - without having to tempt Him by flying on Korean).
(4)Recently tried to "cash in" some of my hard-earned 210K+ SkyMiles for a tenth anniversary trip with my wife to Costa Rica this coming April (was willing to spend my miles to fly either coach or Biz-Elite; gave them a month window within which to work a 10-day trip; and as a SM, thinking that their no blackout date rule for Elites meant something). Nothing doing. No seats available in either coach or Biz-Elite for the entire month. Miff'ed beyond words I called British Airways and cashed in BA miles for two Business-class tickets on American for the same time-frame - with better connections and for LESS miles.
(4)Delta's current labor troubles with their pilots, mechanics, and FA's has already caused a 2-3% reduction in flights offered since November. And, it leads me to believe that booking major travel on Delta in the coming year is going to make Delta's 2001 (and possibly beyond) look like United's mid-2000 problems.
(5)With United's new premium coach seating for Mileage Plus elite's (which I have qualified for until 2/2002), American's new roomier seating throughtout coach, Continental's better service and rare weather-related problems when connecting through IAH, Delta's coach-class seating and DFW weather hassles have also put them at a competitive disadvantage.
(6)Despite all of the above (and the fact, that I've only taken ONE RT on Delta since June - accumulating just under 6K for all of 2000), they have just quietly without so much as a letter or any other kind of communication comp'ed me back to what is now an absolutely worthless (other than the 25% "unredeemable" bonus miles that I'd earn per trip) SM status for 2001. I guess they're "rewarding" me for my long-term loyalty to Delta. My current feelings are - it's way too little and way too late because of the lack of business acumen shown by management to address the real issues of those of us SM's, GM's & even PM's who are "walking with our feet".
Well, there's my "dump truck". And, despite all of the above, I REALLY WANT to continue calling Delta "my airline". I signed the "Save SkyMiles" petition months ago and have tried to keep an open mind - waiting and hoping that Delta would get their ship righted.
However, my options now seem to be down to what to change my FlyerTalk handle to. Can anybody help me figure out how to change from "deltadave" to something more appropriate?
I'm sorry, Delta. I "loved" you guys!
Jan 31, 2001, 1:00 pm
#40
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Posts: 51
Well. I guess I've been quiet long enough. I'm one of those guys who's always loved Delta, flown Delta whenever possible, and would have quickly stood up for Delta and the great service they've always provided (hence my FlyerTalk handle - deltadave). That was until things started changing the past couple of years and especially the past nine months.
Here's a little background on me and why I'm changing (albeit sadly) my airline allegiance.
(1)My father-in-law is a retired Delta airline mechanic.
(2)I lived in East Texas for about seven years, 1982-1989, when I began flying more frequently (as such, my choices were Delta or American out of DFW - and as I didn't fly enough at that point to get status, and, as American's miles expired every 3 years no matter what - Delta got the chance to earn my business).
(3)For the past 21 years I've worked in store management for Wal-Mart (1978-1990) and for a non-profit ministry organization in Colorado Springs, CO (1990-Present). Both of these organizations "require" purchasing the best-priced ticket (or at least close to it).
(4)I have been SM with Delta for the past three years (fly enough to get "status" with only one airline per year).
(5)I travel internationally usually once or twice per year.
(6)I book travel for as many as a dozen other employeese of my company on a fairly consistent basis (both domestic and international).
With that said, here are the things that have led me to "switch" my frequent flyer allegiance:
(1)Delta's L-class ticket policy (that was instituted several years ago) has reduced my upgrade possibilities to nil. I've only been able to upgrade three RT's in the past two years (and that was due to several Delta K-fare sales that I jumped on and one last-minute oversees M-class fare that I was able to use a "now extinct for SM's" SWU on). As I watch all of my 800 Mile Upgrade points expire and disappear every January 1, I have to ask myself, what good are they?
(2)With the loss of old SkyMile partner airlines such as SwissAir and Austrian (both of whom I loved flying on in a least one direction to or from my European trips), I'm now stuck with coach on Delta, Air France, or CZA (none of which come close to SwissAir, Austrian, Lufthansa, or British Airways when comparing their coach service).
(3)With increasing trans-Pacific travel, Delta can only get me to Japan (unless I want to completely trust my life to God - which I do anyway - without having to tempt Him by flying on Korean).
(4)Recently tried to "cash in" some of my hard-earned 210K+ SkyMiles for a tenth anniversary trip with my wife to Costa Rica this coming April (was willing to spend my miles to fly either coach or Biz-Elite; gave them a month window within which to work a 10-day trip; and as a SM, thinking that their no blackout date rule for Elites meant something). Nothing doing. No seats available in either coach or Biz-Elite for the entire month. Miff'ed beyond words I called British Airways and cashed in BA miles for two Business-class tickets on American for the same time-frame - with better connections and for LESS miles.
(4)Delta's current labor troubles with their pilots, mechanics, and FA's has already caused a 2-3% reduction in flights offered since November. And, it leads me to believe that booking major travel on Delta in the coming year is going to make Delta's 2001 (and possibly beyond) look like United's mid-2000 problems.
(5)With United's new premium coach seating for Mileage Plus elite's (which I have qualified for until 2/2002), American's new roomier seating throughtout coach, Continental's better service and rare weather-related problems when connecting through IAH, Delta's coach-class seating and DFW weather hassles have also put them at a competitive disadvantage.
(6)Despite all of the above (and the fact, that I've only taken ONE RT on Delta since June - accumulating just under 6K for all of 2000), they have just quietly without so much as a letter or any other kind of communication comp'ed me back to what is now an absolutely worthless (other than the 25% "unredeemable" bonus miles that I'd earn per trip) SM status for 2001. I guess they're "rewarding" me for my long-term loyalty to Delta. My current feelings are - it's way too little and way too late because of the lack of business acumen shown by management to address the real issues of those of us SM's, GM's & even PM's who are "walking with our feet".
Well, there's my "dump truck". And, despite all of the above, I REALLY WANT to continue calling Delta "my airline". I signed the "Save SkyMiles" petition months ago and have tried to keep an open mind - waiting and hoping that Delta would get their ship righted.
However, my options now seem to be down to what to change my FlyerTalk handle to. Can anybody help me figure out how to change from "deltadave" to something more appropriate?
I'm sorry, Delta. I "loved" you guys!
Here's a little background on me and why I'm changing (albeit sadly) my airline allegiance.
(1)My father-in-law is a retired Delta airline mechanic.
(2)I lived in East Texas for about seven years, 1982-1989, when I began flying more frequently (as such, my choices were Delta or American out of DFW - and as I didn't fly enough at that point to get status, and, as American's miles expired every 3 years no matter what - Delta got the chance to earn my business).
(3)For the past 21 years I've worked in store management for Wal-Mart (1978-1990) and for a non-profit ministry organization in Colorado Springs, CO (1990-Present). Both of these organizations "require" purchasing the best-priced ticket (or at least close to it).
(4)I have been SM with Delta for the past three years (fly enough to get "status" with only one airline per year).
(5)I travel internationally usually once or twice per year.
(6)I book travel for as many as a dozen other employeese of my company on a fairly consistent basis (both domestic and international).
With that said, here are the things that have led me to "switch" my frequent flyer allegiance:
(1)Delta's L-class ticket policy (that was instituted several years ago) has reduced my upgrade possibilities to nil. I've only been able to upgrade three RT's in the past two years (and that was due to several Delta K-fare sales that I jumped on and one last-minute oversees M-class fare that I was able to use a "now extinct for SM's" SWU on). As I watch all of my 800 Mile Upgrade points expire and disappear every January 1, I have to ask myself, what good are they?
(2)With the loss of old SkyMile partner airlines such as SwissAir and Austrian (both of whom I loved flying on in a least one direction to or from my European trips), I'm now stuck with coach on Delta, Air France, or CZA (none of which come close to SwissAir, Austrian, Lufthansa, or British Airways when comparing their coach service).
(3)With increasing trans-Pacific travel, Delta can only get me to Japan (unless I want to completely trust my life to God - which I do anyway - without having to tempt Him by flying on Korean).
(4)Recently tried to "cash in" some of my hard-earned 210K+ SkyMiles for a tenth anniversary trip with my wife to Costa Rica this coming April (was willing to spend my miles to fly either coach or Biz-Elite; gave them a month window within which to work a 10-day trip; and as a SM, thinking that their no blackout date rule for Elites meant something). Nothing doing. No seats available in either coach or Biz-Elite for the entire month. Miff'ed beyond words I called British Airways and cashed in BA miles for two Business-class tickets on American for the same time-frame - with better connections and for LESS miles.
(4)Delta's current labor troubles with their pilots, mechanics, and FA's has already caused a 2-3% reduction in flights offered since November. And, it leads me to believe that booking major travel on Delta in the coming year is going to make Delta's 2001 (and possibly beyond) look like United's mid-2000 problems.
(5)With United's new premium coach seating for Mileage Plus elite's (which I have qualified for until 2/2002), American's new roomier seating throughtout coach, Continental's better service and rare weather-related problems when connecting through IAH, Delta's coach-class seating and DFW weather hassles have also put them at a competitive disadvantage.
(6)Despite all of the above (and the fact, that I've only taken ONE RT on Delta since June - accumulating just under 6K for all of 2000), they have just quietly without so much as a letter or any other kind of communication comp'ed me back to what is now an absolutely worthless (other than the 25% "unredeemable" bonus miles that I'd earn per trip) SM status for 2001. I guess they're "rewarding" me for my long-term loyalty to Delta. My current feelings are - it's way too little and way too late because of the lack of business acumen shown by management to address the real issues of those of us SM's, GM's & even PM's who are "walking with our feet".
Well, there's my "dump truck". And, despite all of the above, I REALLY WANT to continue calling Delta "my airline". I signed the "Save SkyMiles" petition months ago and have tried to keep an open mind - waiting and hoping that Delta would get their ship righted.
However, my options now seem to be down to what to change my FlyerTalk handle to. Can anybody help me figure out how to change from "deltadave" to something more appropriate?
I'm sorry, Delta. I "loved" you guys!
Apr 19, 2011, 5:58 am
#41
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12
expired delta miles
my daughter's 62.000 miles expired on 12/31 and then on 1/1 delta had a new rule that miles no longer expire. does anyone have any ideas on how i can get delta to reinstate the miles?