gilpin

There are 2 things I don't understand in this discussion. I thought the pre-9/11 contract was open for revision beginning this year. (in May?) What happened with that? Was the only topic open for revision the amount of pay increase?

Also, what is the "51 day period" related to the court filing?

Threy

The big question seems to be what most of the pilots would do...

What would happen, if DL goes bust ? I guess that at least 60-70 % of the capacity will be in the market again sooner or later, so obviously some pilots will be (re)hired again sooner or later.
Seniority would be lost ? What would happen at ATL ? Will there be a Swiss / SN Brussels scenario, when a smaller airline [ with the same employees ] takes over parts of the standed company ?

Traffic rights would be a problem in that case, but I don`t see the majority of DL pilots unimployed for a long time after a possible DL liquidation and I fear that could brake DL`s neck ( still do not think that the pilots will strike, but nobody expected it on LH 3 or 4 years ago also including their CEO at that time....)

Actually there is a shortage of really experienced pilots on the market right now, not necassarily around ATL; but all Arabian airlines are on a huge shopping spree for all kinds of positions, including pilots, mostly for their widebody aircraft...somebody has to fly the 45 EK A 380 after all

Not that it would affect all DL pilots, but the problem is that some voice leaders may have reached a point where liquidation is not the end of the world for them, always a huge risk in union going on strikes, personal egos kind of leading into the wrong direction...

FWAAA

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the pilot contract was extended until 2010 at the time of last fall's concessions. The pilots gave back a third of their comp, worth about a billion dollars annually. Apparently too little, too late.

The 51 days refers to the fact that after the petiton and other first day motions are filed in a bankruptcy proceeding, almost nothing else that is later filed (including the section 1113(c) filing) becomes effective until everyone gets notice and a hearing is held.

Owen

Okay.

Item 1: "Pilots" are not a monolith. The union can call for a strike vote, get 51% approval, and 49% will cross that picket line -- because the reason they voted no to the strike was because they CAN'T get another job with that level of seniority, and therefore pay.

Item 2: What makes you think pilots senior enough to be A380 interested would want to move or commute to Europe? This is absurd. Check with headhunters. Roughly 75% of job offers made to candidates that will require a relocation are not accepted. This is true even with pay raises up to 15%. People find a job where they live. They damn sure don't rip their kids out of school to take a job that includes a pay cut.

Item 3: And if you think there is a shortage of pilots on the market, then explain why pilot pay is dropping. Supply and demand trumps airline difficulties. The job market is awash with a flood of pilots. The Delta cockpit jockeys know this. After their union leadership is done posturing and puts anything out for a vote, it will get quashed.

HeathrowGuy

Not so fast - the President can invoke the RLA to require the continuation of the status quo while a PEB is convened. The problem is, if a contract is abrogated under 1113(c), there is no "status quo" anymore - the contract no longer exists, and the airline is free to impose any terms it sees fit. The principles of fairness and equity dictate that the union be allowed to engage in immediate self-help because being compelled to work under terms not agreed to is unconscionable.

ATLpax

And this would be a substantial pay cut - in most cases they would have to start as any newly-hired pilot - at the bottom. Hard to pay the hefty Peachtree City mortgage with mobile home wages...

TTT

How would a pilot strike at Delta differ from the American pilot strike in 1997 and the NWA mechanics strike in 2001, both groups were ordered by the President to return to work? Would the same thing happen at Delta, or are the situations completely different?

Threy

The situation within the strongly expanding Arabian airlines is not comparable with anything so far, their expansion plans are in danger cause they cannot build corporate structures fast enough. I have seen job openings and a colleague of mine has sent an application to a big airline in the region...

As pointed out earlier, it is not interesting for all DL pilots, but trust me, EK or Etihad is watching the situation very closely.We are talking about wages that equal a DL salary of a year in three months @:-)

Did I mention a free appartement, free car, free tickets back home and no taxes at all

Generally pilot wages are falling because some pilots or unions have been smart enough to realise that with their current pay an airline is simply not able to operate anymore...however if money does not matter you can pay any salary...

Again, those airlines are not interesting in getting 31 year old FO`s,who indeed have a young family and a newly acquired house in ATL, they need highly experienced pilots who are able to fly A 330/340 or B 777 / A 380

And they are headhunting like crazy and if you see their offers you may think about going there for ( at least ) a couple of years...

DHAST

I disagree with this point. One of the things pilots are famous for is living on one side of the country and "working" out of the other side of the country. It is quite possible for a pilot to live 2500 miles from his domicile, change domiciles, and not uproot the wife and kids.

TTT

This is true, but it also assumes relative ease to go from home to domicile. Working in the Middle East and having a family in ATL would make for a very long and difficult commute. I don't think flying 15+ hours just to get to work would be an attractive alternative for most pilots, especially with only a small number of travel options to the area on a daily basis. Even if they wanted to, a pilot with low seniority at a new airline probably would not be able to get his/her schedule such that he/she could do the commute but once a month starting off.

How does deadheading work internationally? Is it similar to the system in the US?

HeathrowGuy

The situations are COMPLETELY different - in those cases, a valid contract still existed, and was kept in place while the PEB convened and the parties came to a new agreement. If the Delta contract is abrogated by the BK Court, a valid contract would no longer exist, meaning that there is no "status quo" to be maintained via a PEB. Because Delta would have the right under 1113(c) to impose any contractual terms it deemed necessary (i.e, a right to engage in self-help), the pilots would likely enjoy similar self-help rights.

sh9168

I would not be concerned. Delta is not going to let someone fly their plane if the dont know how to. And being in a union does not gaurentee that the pilot can fly a plane.

MegatopLover

Isn't that the fable of the scorpion and the toad? A toad is sitting by the side of a pond, preparing to jump across it from lilly pad to lilly pad. Along comes a scorpion and says, "Excuse me, Mr. Toad. I can't swim or jump like you can, but I need to get to the other side. Would you be so kind as to give me a lift across on your back?" Skeptical, the toad responds, "But you're a scorpion. If I let you ride across with me, we'll get halfway and you'll bite me in the back and kill me." The scorpion responds with a sigh of exasperation, "That wouldn't make any sense. If I bite you halfway across and you die, I'll drown." The toad thinks about it. Convinced by the scorpion's logic, he agrees to give him a ride, so the scorpion climbs aboard. On a lilly pad halfway across, the scorpion bites the toad after all. Stung by the fatal poison, the dying toad exclaims, "Hey! Why did you do that? You can't swim, so now you'll drown." The scorpion responds, plainly, "You see, I'm a scorpion. It's in my nature."

The unions at Eastern (IIRC, led by the pilots and joined in sympathy by others) went on strike despite the gravest warnings that a strike would kill the crippled carrier. It was in their nature.

I would like to think that DALPA learned something from Eastern. A lot of this is posturing for the hearings on Delta's rejection motion, perhaps the better part of it to justify to members that their dues are being spent to beat up on management in the short-term interest of the members (that is, after all, what unions do best). I would venture to say that the real threat of a strike is extremely low. But then again, a strike is in a union's nature.

HeathrowGuy

To be fair, shafting employees is in the nature of airline management.

TTT

Thanks for the explanation, HeathrowGuy. You always provide great info.

I agree, MegatopLover, a strike would seem to be short-sighted on the part of DALPA. Delta could not continue for very long if the pilots were to strike, and I think most pilots know this. To be fair, I think Delta management jumped the gun in submitting the 1113(c). There could have been a little more discussion on both sides, IMO.