BHammy

Did a search, didn't see right away a similar thread...didn't dig through several pages either.

Have a flight this fall: CHA-ATL-AMS-LAD-WDH and return.

CHA-AMS is on DL metal, AMS-WDH is KLM

On the return, AMS-ATL, was booked on a DL A330 - got C+ upgrade at booking.
Updated itinerary has equipment change to DL A350 on the AMS-ATL return.
No C+ seating, just D1, PS and cattle.

DL pushed us down to the first row in cattle, as a Y fare.

I called to ask about upgrading to PS or options since we (my FO daughter and I (DM)) were already "upgraded" to C+.

Agent called international desk, then KLM desk.
They show me as very high on the upgrade list being DM MM and with a re-badged Y-fare and more than likely will be getting an upgrade. (otherwise $750 per seat to upgrade to PS)

I deemed it unnecessary to mention that I didn't know about complimentary international upgrades, but even my itinerary says: "Manage complimentary upgrades" for the AMS-ATL leg...and that I've requested an upgrade.

I know it's kind of an IROPs situation, but what "complimentary upgrade" am I eligible for?

flyerCO

If the plane had C+ you'd be eligible to upgrade to it. It's managed through same process as domestic F upgrades. International though it's only to C+. C+ is not PS. You will not be upgraded to it as it's not a benefit for anyone.

moondog

C+ isn't really an upgrade. In fact, on flights that are only 75% full, I personally pick a window seat towards the back because odds are, the middle will be empty. I place a higher value on this than a little more legroom.

ND76

I just got back from a trip to the UK; I was looking for a combination of the cheapest ticket with the most MQMs. For $613 I got DL IAD-MSP-LHR, coming back KLM EDI-AMS-IAD, a total of 9,279 MQMs (I had a Britrailpass in the UK, which worked out to $76 per day for a 60+ traveler to sit in first class). I inquired with a Delta reservationist about upgrading the eastbound TATL segment (I was UGed at the 5 day window to F on the domestic leg), and she wanted $1,705 plus 60,000 SkyMiles to UG. What I did then was to have her re-seat me from C+ to regular coach, and then I got an empty row of 3 near the rear of the plane, where I slept 6 of the 8 hour flight. The only thing of value I missed out on was a FastTrack immigration pass (on a previous flight to LHR, the flight attendant proactively gave my wife and me such passes). I should mention that when I checked in on my iPhone, I got an offer from Delta to sit in D1 for $895.00.

On the westbound trip, KLM's computer offered me an upgrade to "business" EDI-AMS for €69 (a coach seat with the middle seat empty) and J with flat bed seats AMS-IAD for €549. I got an exit row aisle on the first flight and slept all the way from EDI to touchdown at AMS; on the TATL 777-200, I got a window seat in KLM's version of "economy comfort", and lucked out when the middle seat was empty.

ethernal

Agree that an empty middle seat is a big boost that limits the impact of reduced legroom, but a person's preference is probably highly dependent on personal dimensions and what a person is trying to do (e.g., work on a laptop versus mindlessly stare at IFE).

As someone that is 6' 4" and tries to work on flights - and as someone that doesn't get C+ that often (I only ever get them at the gate) - a C+ upgrade is a godsend.

MSPeconomist

ethernal

To each their own.. to me, C+ is the difference between a tolerable flight and a miserable one. I personally consider that an upgrade. Obviously the same could be said for exit rows, but everyone and their mom can select those so they are never available.

I get the fact that every row used to have 32-33" back in the good old days. So is it an upgrade from what flying used to be? Not really, but certainly in the era of dense-ified planes it is an upgrade. It means that my knees are less likely to hurt from being jammed up against a seat and it means that my forearms and shoulders won't be in pain for the rest of the day from "t-rexing" my arms with a laptop at a 45° because there is no room for it.

C+ is the difference between pain and occasional mild discomfort. That is a massive upgrade. To me, actively avoiding pain is an even bigger upgrade than C+ to First which is just discomfort-or-neutral to comfort. If you gave me the ratio of 1 flight in Y and 1 in F, to 2 flights in C+ with no flights in F, I'd pick the latter option every time.

Of course, as an economist you know everyone's utility function is different.. so this is very much a YMMV situation.

Often1

Bottom line is that whether OP told the phone agent or not, DL does not provide freebie UG's other than to C+ on international and is known for sending out PS and D1 with empty seats unless someone in steerage wants to pay or otherwise support the UG (putting aside OPUPS which are not relevant to this situation). Thus, entirely up to OP whether he is willing to pay.

Two other options:

1. Ask to be rerouted on some other service with C+ for the TATL hop. KL for AMS-XXX and then DL metal to ATL. DL has no obligation to do so, but that is not an unreasonable request and it might be granted.

2. DL chooses to market C+ as a separate class of service and refers to seat assignments as "upgrades." This is a downgrade on a departure from the EU and that entitles OP to a refund of 75% of the base segment fare paid for AMS-ATL. That might be a nice chunk of change. DL will likely fight that tooth and nail and OP might have to pursue a claim in the appropriate SCC for AMS, but that is real money for a bit of leg room and not much more.

flyerCO

OP didn't pay for C+, it was a free upgrade. Even if he had, I'm not sure EU would consider it a downgrade. C+ is generally viewed as a coach ticket, but with added benefits. It's not a separate cabin.

Often1

Why does it matter whether or what OP paid for C+?

EC 261/2004 provides that the refund is 75% of the base segment fare paid, not the fare difference. DL markets C+ as a separate cabin and the jump from Y to C+ as an "upgrade" (unlike both AA & UA which do not market MCE or E+ as a separate cabin or market the product as an UG).

On what basis do you believe that Dutch courts won't see C+ to Y?

flyerCO

No DL doesn't market it as a separate cabin. It's marketed as separate experience within the main cabin. Just like BE isn't a separate cabin.

BHammy

I'll agree with everyone here:

C+ is not really an 'upgrade' on Int'l flights - just slightly more legroom.
And there are no comp'd upgrades into PS or D1 on Int'l

But as mentioned: A350 - so there is no C+ to discuss.
And I've been rebooked into Y class - which I certainly didn't book.

So I'm to understand that:
- KLM desk doesn't know what they're talking about
- DM desk doesn't know what they're talking about
- DL.com has it wrong too. (fare class and "Upgrade Eligible")
Yes, I believe all three are possible....but the simultaneous trifecta seems like something is up that I/we don't know about?

I guess I'll just have to wait until flight time (Sept) to see what transpires - or cleans itself up by then?

flyerCO

Upgarde eligible is correct. However with no C+, itll never turn to Upgrade available. 1st/2nd point is common cause of confusion between C+/PS. In fact agents in past have been known to try and say getting rebooked from PS to C+ wasn't a downgrade.

Often1

Good luck with that argument in any national court in the EU.

On the page describing DL's "experiences" e.g. D1, all the way down to BE, and the accompanying FAQ, I count the use of the word "upgrade" in connection with C+ on seven occasions.

This is a DL-created issue. The people who write is marketing materials are carefully reviewed by regulatory and legal teams.

flyerCO

Just because they manage who sits in it differently, doesn't mean it's any different than AA. If C+ was a higher cabin then one would need pay full APD when departing LHR. It's not viewed as such by EU or US. In fact the US requires certain disabled passengers be given the bulkhead. If you buy coach you get a seat in C+ since the coach bulkhead is there.

All DL did was make you pay the C+ fee when purchasing your ticket. The fact they use a fare class bucket, instead of a ticket designator doesn't matter.