Delta to order 100+ Airbus A321neo Aircraft
Dec 14, 2017, 8:29 pm
#121
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Yes the 2L/R doors just forward of the wing are deleted, they can't be used for boarding anyway. Either one pair or two of overwing exits are added, however. (Probably one pair given the density here. Two overwings per side would be for ULCC-type densities or on less dense aircraft, can allow the 3L/R doors to be deactivated). The behind-the-wing doors are moved back roughly two seat rows, or 4 frames to be exact.
Dec 14, 2017, 8:52 pm
#122
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Dec 14, 2017, 8:56 pm
#123
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Perhaps an oversight on the designer's part.
Dec 14, 2017, 9:00 pm
#124
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I think you misunderstood my point. Why would Delta need to order from P&W to get their MRO business? It seems underhanded to say "you have to buy our product in order to be awarded the service contract". Sounds like dirty politics. As an example, if your GM car breaks down the Ford or Toyota dealer will be happy to fix it for you even though they don't sell GM cars. I would think Tech Ops would want to service as many engines as possible regardless if Delta uses any of them themselves.
Oh and I found the quote from Bastian saying they still had a great relationship with Boeing to be amusing. They haven't ordered a new Boeing in almost a decade. And the 739 only won that order because Delta was on the hook for the 787 cancelation. Had that not happened there wouldn't be any 739 in the fleet.
Plus these days the vast majority of engines are sold "power by the hour". This means that the airline's procurement team no longer get to say where repairs are done. For example, if GE decide to repair a UA engine in Xiamen, China, or in France, or in the US, it is GE's decision, not UA (assuming UA GE90 are on PBH deals)
So, if you are DL Tech Ops, pretty much the only way to hook into that repair flow (from other operators) is in alliance with the engine manufacturer, because they control the aftermarket. And about the only time you have leverage is when you are buying lots of aircraft, and have an engine choice... (note AF delayed signing their A350 order for a long time until RR gave them some repair business)
So your GM example, no, is not a good analogy. It is more like you have a rental car from AVIS. If it breaks down, you have no say in if it goes to a GM or Ford dealer to repair.
Also - aircraft engines are staying on wing for longer and longer. So the economic size of engine fleet that makes sense to have repair facilities is getting bigger and bigger. To get economy of sale/ scope you probably want at least 1 engine a week, preferably two
Last edited by peasant; Dec 14, 2017 at 9:10 pm
Dec 14, 2017, 9:29 pm
#125
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Dec 14, 2017, 9:46 pm
#126
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Dec 14, 2017, 10:35 pm
#128
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Dec 14, 2017, 10:37 pm
#129
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Dec 15, 2017, 2:05 am
#130
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That's not an apples to apples comparison. For starters the BA A318 has very few seats, it makes a stop westbound, and LHR is one of the shortest TATL. The A321 is a stretched (read heavier) version of the A318. It could maybe make it with a lighter configuration to LHR but not much beyond.
Just for the record: The BA A318 makes indeed a stop when going from LCY to JFK, but this only due to the fact that LCY has an extremely short runway (about 5000ft/1500m). So it needs to re-fuel in SNN, even though JFK would be within technical operations range.
If you ever have the possibility to fly out of LCY, give it a try. Quite some experience - even on European routes. Engines on full speed, full brakes and a sudden release of the brakes give quite an acceleration due to the very short runway. Then comes a very very steep take off.
Dec 15, 2017, 2:20 am
#131
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It also doesn't fly like an overstretched pig that needs longer takeoff rolls than most widebodies.
Dec 15, 2017, 2:53 am
#132
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The 739 isn't quite the pig you all make it out to be. It gets its in and out of Kathmandu, one of the most difficult airports in the world, without crashing. You are experiencing a de-rated takeoff thrust setting >90% of the time.
Dec 15, 2017, 3:49 am
#133
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The 737 flies like the efficient, reliable, and capable airplane it is. It's a fantastic airplane, just like the A320.
Dec 15, 2017, 4:26 am
#134
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DL will be flying the MD90s for quite a while. As they phase out the 88s and bring in 321ceos and later neos, they won't do all of that as direct 88 to 321 swaps. The 321s move onto 739 and MD90 routes, etc. DL also just updated the 319s and 320s, so most of those are staying for a while.
I'm already (sadly) seeing 739s on some MSP-DEN (my most common route) which was a 320/MD90 stalwart for years with DL. I of course can handle a 739 for 1h35m airtime. And actually in C+ for such a short haul, it's OK - but the C section is small so late bookings suck.
Anyway, back to the larger point, I don't see any reason that this order stops DL from continuing to acquire other single aisle planes. Leeham News says this covers most of the need, but not all by any means.
They may go back to their used a/c strategy, too. I suspect that DL is well aware of the lifecycle of Asian LCC A320s, and could certainly consider some strategic used purchases there of 10 y.o. frames off lease. Heck, the Air Berlin collapse (and now Niki) could make some 320s available at decent rates quite soon. Absolute speculation on my part, of course. DL may have decided that upgauging is paramount. We'll see.
I'm already (sadly) seeing 739s on some MSP-DEN (my most common route) which was a 320/MD90 stalwart for years with DL. I of course can handle a 739 for 1h35m airtime. And actually in C+ for such a short haul, it's OK - but the C section is small so late bookings suck.
Anyway, back to the larger point, I don't see any reason that this order stops DL from continuing to acquire other single aisle planes. Leeham News says this covers most of the need, but not all by any means.
They may go back to their used a/c strategy, too. I suspect that DL is well aware of the lifecycle of Asian LCC A320s, and could certainly consider some strategic used purchases there of 10 y.o. frames off lease. Heck, the Air Berlin collapse (and now Niki) could make some 320s available at decent rates quite soon. Absolute speculation on my part, of course. DL may have decided that upgauging is paramount. We'll see.
If Delta can't find a way to get engine overhaul costs down they are going to be parked a lot faster than originally planned
Why would any engine OEM give Delta a license to overhaul the product, much less join the respective AMC networks without an order? Airline MROs do not get AMC deals without ordering the airplane. That is why the Lufthansa Group has pretty much every new airplane and new engine on order.
Oh and I found the quote from Bastian saying they still had a great relationship with Boeing to be amusing. They haven't ordered a new Boeing in almost a decade. And the 739 only won that order because Delta was on the hook for the 787 cancelation. Had that not happened there wouldn't be any 739 in the fleet.
The 739 discounts and A321 discounts are both right around 45-50% About the same as what United and American are paying for CEO/NGs.
After Boeing's C series fiasco, you don't need to be a fortune teller to have seen this coming. Add in Canada's decision to buy used older generation fighter jets rather than ever do business with Boeing again, and that tariff spat is going to cost them billions. 
Glad I sold my Boeing shares years ago....I can't imagine the short-sighted stupidity running the show there now.
As to the A321, let's see if Delta opts for wider, more comfortable seats, or just crams in more of what they already have.
Glad I sold my Boeing shares years ago....I can't imagine the short-sighted stupidity running the show there now.As to the A321, let's see if Delta opts for wider, more comfortable seats, or just crams in more of what they already have.
Boeing is up something like 100 bucks on the year.
Dirty poltics no, dirty business possibly. Yes, Delta Tech Ops wants to be in the business of servicing as many engine types as possible. However the tooling/ training/ equipments costs are extremely high. Without a core market of guaranteed repair business (which they now have with DL fleet) it is highly unlikely they could make a business case.
Plus these days the vast majority of engines are sold "power by the hour". This means that the airline's procurement team no longer get to say where repairs are done. For example, if GE decide to repair a UA engine in Xiamen, China, or in France, or in the US, it is GE's decision, not UA (assuming UA GE90 are on PBH deals)
So, if you are DL Tech Ops, pretty much the only way to hook into that repair flow (from other operators) is in alliance with the engine manufacturer, because they control the aftermarket. And about the only time you have leverage is when you are buying lots of aircraft, and have an engine choice... (note AF delayed signing their A350 order for a long time until RR gave them some repair business)
So your GM example, no, is not a good analogy. It is more like you have a rental car from AVIS. If it breaks down, you have no say in if it goes to a GM or Ford dealer to repair.
Also - aircraft engines are staying on wing for longer and longer. So the economic size of engine fleet that makes sense to have repair facilities is getting bigger and bigger. To get economy of sale/ scope you probably want at least 1 engine a week, preferably two
Plus these days the vast majority of engines are sold "power by the hour". This means that the airline's procurement team no longer get to say where repairs are done. For example, if GE decide to repair a UA engine in Xiamen, China, or in France, or in the US, it is GE's decision, not UA (assuming UA GE90 are on PBH deals)
So, if you are DL Tech Ops, pretty much the only way to hook into that repair flow (from other operators) is in alliance with the engine manufacturer, because they control the aftermarket. And about the only time you have leverage is when you are buying lots of aircraft, and have an engine choice... (note AF delayed signing their A350 order for a long time until RR gave them some repair business)
So your GM example, no, is not a good analogy. It is more like you have a rental car from AVIS. If it breaks down, you have no say in if it goes to a GM or Ford dealer to repair.
Also - aircraft engines are staying on wing for longer and longer. So the economic size of engine fleet that makes sense to have repair facilities is getting bigger and bigger. To get economy of sale/ scope you probably want at least 1 engine a week, preferably two
Ones with either direct control of the OEM or a Joint venture partner. Or major airline MROs that place an order for the type.
For example, Pratt has given out 5 MRO licenses for the GTF. One to its self, One to MTU (major GTF supplier), JAEC (major GTF supplier), Lufthansa (launch customer for the A32S GTF and C-serise GTF) and the Delta deal.
Thats the future of engine MRO. Hell if Boeing and Airbus have their way that will be the future of aircraft maintenance.