MSPeconomist

Maybe that's the explanation as I'm using miles to upgrade since I have a B fare.

However, my understanding (which agrees with EF) is that O inventory is KLM classic (low) award space in business class. It would be what we want for award tickets using DL miles.

bgriff

ExpertFlyer says it's both: "Business - Classic Award & Upgrade (O)"

Whereas Z is specific to Delta certs: "Business - Upgrade with DL SWU/Global Upgrades & Fare Class (Z)" (I take the part after the ampersand to reflect the fact that Z is also a paid KLM business class fare)

BA and VS also use the same fare bucket for awards and upgrades so there is some precedent for European carriers doing this, and this article suggests that upgrades using FB miles go into O. But none of that means for sure that KL upgrades using DL miles go into O. Also totally unclear to me why mileage and GUC upgrades go into different buckets, but considering Z seems to be somewhat more commonly available than O, let's not complain.

(BTW, if you do get the upgrade processed into O, I wouldn't be surprised if you then don't earn miles for that flight since DL will read it as an award, which may require some work and luck to correct, if indeed it's correctable at all. I had imagined this might be a problem with the VS upgrades into G as well, but since it seems no one ever successfully achieved one of those upgrades, there probably aren't any data points on how that worked.)

MSPeconomist

Yeah, Z is deep discount paid inventory on KLM.

However, I never realized that KLM uses different inventory classes for DL GUCs versus DL upgrades with miles or the SkyTeam upgrade award program way to upgrade with miles, which requires an even higher fare class.

What I'm seeing on EF for the intraEU KLM flights I was considering makes me suspect that as a result, it's much easier to upgrade these flights with DL miles than with DL GUCs that are only available to DMs. If anything, this is the opposite of what I would have expected, but perhaps upgrades with miles result in a transfer of money from DL to KLM but GUC usage doesn't. I'm speculating, but if these rules are correct, it's surprising.

bgriff

I don't know that that's generally true. For the ORD-CPT route, I see many, many dates over the next year with Z availability, but almost none with O availability. So in that case GUCs are much more valuable.

Taking another random example, AMS-TXL for next year ... EF won't show exact quantities of O available, but searching for 8 seats very few flights show O available, but at least half of the flights show 8 or 9 Z seats.

It is possible there are specific cases where O is more available than Z though, especially if O availability is not based on married segment logic. (Before I got my GUCs to work, I booked a EWR-AMS-CPT business class award, meaning there was definitely O available on AMS-CPT on a date when no Z was showing if starting from NYC.)

MSPeconomist

Just when we thought FF programs couldn't get any more complicated. Now we discover that there are additional less obvious things to consider when deciding whether to use GUCs or miles to upgrade.

Plus, it will be fun seeing whether flights flown in KLM O class will post when they're upgrades paid with miles but not post when they're low award inventory. Still, I suspect that this was KLM's choice and not something that DL could have done.

WidgetTravels

As the paid booking class is what matters, upgrades to O won't cause an issue with mileage crediting.

For the record, KLM Y fares upgrade to Z class, and B and M upgrade to O class.

Delta marketed KLM flights go to Z (for GUCs).

MSPeconomist

Sigh. I remember the time with PMNW when one could get more upgrade space by moving from an M to a B fare, which usually wasn't much of a price difference. Now it's only Y, just like the SkyTeam (mileage award) upgrade program.

However, I'm still puzzled because, as I mentioned upthread, for the KLM flights I was considering, EF tended to show more O than Z availability, although often when Z was a positive it would have a fair number of such seats, while EF only shows "yes" with no quantity indication for the O bucket.

Suppose someone (such as a DM) has purchased a ticket for a KLM flight with a KLM flight number and wants to upgrade, where Z = 0 but O = yes. Can the Y fare ticket upgrade into the available O space if Z isn't available or is the customer going to be punished for having bought the more expensive ticket?

WidgetTravels

In practice, I've never seen O > Z, but I suppose in theory it's possible?

MSPeconomist

Here are a bunch of current examples from EF where O = yes but Z = 0:

KLM 1693 6/23

KLM 1695 6/24

KLM 1693 6/24

KLM 1697 6/24

KLM 1695 6/25

KLM 1693 6/25

KLM 1697 6/25

KLM 1692 6/29

KLM 1694 6/29

KLM 1694 6/30

KLM 1694 7/1

KLM 1696 7/2

KLM 1694 7/2

KLM 1692 7/3

KLM 1694 7/3

Maybe this route is weird, but I don't see any obvious reasons for this.

WidgetTravels

That's odd. I don't use EF, so I don't know how often it returns phantom space. Can't imagine all of them are phantom, though it does happen a decent amount with KL.

Though Z is both discounted J and an upgrade class...I wonder if it may show no Z for purchase, but will show Z for Upgrade. That's interesting...

bgriff

I can kind of see how this makes sense, especially for last-minute availability: many carriers make awards available last minute, which in this case is the same thing as making O class upgrades available. But it makes sense that cheap business class fares would be unavailable.

As far as I can tell, EF's view of Z is the same whether you search for regular availability (showing all fare classes including Z) or you search for it as an upgrade class. So it doesn't appear there is differential availability, unless there is something else going on that EF doesn't have access to. Z can also change based on married segments, though checking a few different logical routings with the flights MSPEconomist listed, I don't see any where Z becomes available.

It would make somewhat more sense if KLM did what Delta sometimes does where a cheaper fare class is open, and you can see it as such in EF, but it has advance purchase requirements so you can't actually buy it. (On Delta this comes up when you are sometimes able to SDC into an open cheap fare class even though you can't buy a new ticket in that fare class.) But for this set of example routes at least, that doesn't appear to be what KLM is doing.

So for last-minute upgrades it would appear a B,M fare could actually be easier to upgrade using miles than a Y fare, and easier than using GUCs on any fare, at least for shorthaul KLM flights.

MSPeconomist

Sure enough, mileage from the trip posted and I received NO credit whatsoever for my B fare KLM segment that was upgraded with miles into O class. Sigh. Time to start calling DL.

dilbertsdaddy

Not to change the subject, but I learned the hard way that AF/KL flight numbers do not receive SPG Crossover points, even on DL metal.

My next trip is all DL coded, mostly AF metal. Everything is good now, but I have had DL flight numbers convert to operating carrier flight numbers during schedule changes. So there is one more thing to worry about.

Regarding GUC, mine usually expire or get used on short domestic trips at the last minute. I get them in case I need them or can use them but they usually go to waste. The frustration around using them is why I would never waste my time with RUC's. You would think this would be easy to automate to remove the agent error.......he he

If there was an easy and reliable way to use these I would max out GUC and RUC during choice bennie selection. Don't like the battlefield game

beamer2000

Sorry if this is answered somewhere else, but approximately how early is GUC availability released/available to use?

bgriff

There is no hard and fast rule. If you are pretty flexible with dates and aren't booking one of the very top demand routes like LAX-SYD, you can find at least some upgrade space through the end of the calendar. Upgrade space also often gets added in the few months and weeks before departure, though that's not guaranteed of course.

For KLM upgrades, the rules and patterns may be different, but again at least some routes will have space available through the end of the calendar. Last-minute GUC upgrade space on KLM appears to be somewhat less common than on Delta (see discussion in the last few pages of this thread), perhaps because KLM GUC upgrade space is also used for discounted cash business class seats.