May 5, 2017, 3:35 pm
Last edit by: Kamalaasaa
Confirmed facts:
Best guesses, but unconfirmed:
Wild guesses/assumptions/unknowns:
- Incident concerns DL2222 on 23 APR 2017. Flight ended up departing gate 54 minutes late.
- Family comprised of 5 people: mother, father, 18 year-old son, 2.5 year-old son, 1.5 year-old infant
- Entire family flew together on outbound
- Family claims 1.5 year-old was allowed to travel in own seat on outbound
- 18 year-old left Hawaii on earlier flight (unknown time/airline)
- Father claims (as reported here) that "he was led to believe the switch was not a big deal ... his family told airline staff about the situation from the beginning, and that Delta suggested using the seat for the infant son" and "At the airport ... they spoke with a ticketing agent downstairs who said they technically needed to cancel and buy a new ticket, before saying it was fine. The family obtained the boarding pass."
- Police are already on board by the time video begins
- In video, family is seated across four seats in Main Cabin as follows (seat number references): 44C-dad; 44D-mom; 44E-child in car seat; 44F-child in car seat
- Family was allowed on board with 2 car seats
- During video, DL agent incorrectly cites FAA regulations concerning use of car seats, infant-in-arms, and age restrictions for seating
- During video, DL agent threatens parents with being sent to jail
- As reported here (beginning at 4:25 in video), father "describes how he and his family had gotten onto the plane after passing through multiple checkpoints in the airport and at the gate, where the airline could have stopped them before they took their seats and set up their two toddlers in car seats."
- During video, woman in seat 44A can't seem to stop fiddling with her hair
- At end of video, family offers to fly with 1.5 year-old as infant-in-arms. DL declines and asks them to leave flight
- Initial statement by DL claims that incident was not a result of overbooking the flight
Best guesses, but unconfirmed:
- Family purchased 4 tickets: mother, father, 18 year-old son, 2.5 year-old son
- 1.5 year-old was listed as infant-in-arms with one of the parents
- 1.5 year-old was occupying seat previously assigned to 18 year-old
- Standby list existed with enough people on it to fill all vacant seats on plane
Wild guesses/assumptions/unknowns:
- Unknown how 18 year-old's new flight was ticketed (new DL flight, different airline, SDC/SDS, change to orignal ticket, etc.)
- Unknown what events transpired before the video begins
- Unknown what conversations occurred between DL agents and family prior to flight (either ACS or phone agents)
- Unknown if 18 year-old's ticket was used by family to check him in to the flight
- Unknown if 18 year-old's BP was scanned during boarding process
- Unknown how or when DL agents realized 18 year-old was not present for flight
- Unknown what options DL agents provided family when initially trying to seat standby passenger
- Unknown whether flight was overbooked
- Unknown why standby passengers were on standby (SDS, IRROPS, NRSA, etc.)
- Unknown whether GA attempted to gate check car seats
family kicked off of delta flight maui to lax
May 7, 2017, 11:59 pm
#556
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Atlanta
Programs: Delta Diamond; HHonors Diamond
Posts: 655
Dont know what point are we arguing about.
Transferability is not an issue.
Selling same seat twice is a moral sin. (Neither sports nor entertainment industry does that - they dont mind seat going empty - they already got compensated for it)
Airline model of business (legal under current lobbyists influenced laws) is morally wrong.
Nothing to do with refundability (BTW, my local specialized movie theater does let me change movie/time/day with few hours notice without ANY FEE)
Again, airlines can go back to WAITLIST model where they CAN fill potentially empty seat at last minute without bumping any pax.
Transferability is not an issue.
Selling same seat twice is a moral sin. (Neither sports nor entertainment industry does that - they dont mind seat going empty - they already got compensated for it)
Airline model of business (legal under current lobbyists influenced laws) is morally wrong.
Nothing to do with refundability (BTW, my local specialized movie theater does let me change movie/time/day with few hours notice without ANY FEE)
Again, airlines can go back to WAITLIST model where they CAN fill potentially empty seat at last minute without bumping any pax.
Your analogies are off the mark. You can't skip a sporting event and get a refund, or even a partial refund less a cancellation fee. If you're sick and miss the game, too bad. You get nothing back. If you could get a full or partial refund for a missed sporting event, I have no doubt the team would turn around and sell your seat again.
Your specialized movie theater is an outlier. Most theaters do not offer refunds for short notice cancellations. Plus, I suspect your movie theater sells your ticket again after you cancel it. If not, I also suspect the theater won't stay in business very long.
In this situation, a knowledgeable agent could have come on board and explained that the baby is not allowed to use the 18 year old's ticket because tickets are nontransferable. Letting the guy say over and over on the video that he paid for the seat, without correcting him, is part of what made Delta look so bad. Then, to make matters much worse, the employee threatened the family with arrest. If the front line agents had handled the communication better, this family would have given up quickly and put the baby in a lap, or would have been removed from the plane without compensation, which is what they deserved. Instead, the scammers got compensation and their 15 minutes of fame, all because a Delta employee had no clue how to handle the situation.
May 8, 2017, 12:23 am
#557
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,989
That's not overbooking as we define here. Standing Room is a different class. It does not require bumpping off anyone from current seat.
When restaurant overbooks, it does not kick you out after you have ordered your meal but it has not been served yet. The way airlines runs this part of their business is fundamentally illogical. The fact that it some how works 95% of the time and remaining 4.9999% of the time people are happy with vouchers, does not make it logically right.
Waitlist/Standby model balances fairness with revenue yield.
When restaurant overbooks, it does not kick you out after you have ordered your meal but it has not been served yet. The way airlines runs this part of their business is fundamentally illogical. The fact that it some how works 95% of the time and remaining 4.9999% of the time people are happy with vouchers, does not make it logically right.
Waitlist/Standby model balances fairness with revenue yield.
E.g. a hotel room booked for 5 nights, and because of no overbooking, if you cannot make it, you would now be accountable for all nights. If you rent a car and could not make it because of delays / change in plans etc, and since the company cannot overbook, you are still on the hook for the whole amount and not just a no-show fee?
Overbooking in some industries like the ones mentioned offers benefits to customers like flexibility and reduced fees. They do not just "line the pockets of greedy and immoral corporations"....
Standby / waitlist... ? How will that work? With no tickets for a flight as it is fully sold (no-overbooking), does family of 4 shows up at airport with luggage and hopes for a no-show? Do they pay anything to be on the waitlist? Since it is a waitlist, airline does not have to guarantee anything right? Wait... But they cannot take those 4 seats since the seats were paid for right? So the waitlist / standby is for ....???
In a world where no reassignment of paid seats (but not claimed) is allowed, that would also mean no changing of flights for passengers when plans change (since most flights are usually full) and good luck in weather situations or equipment swap.
Even in the "virtual" markets, telco's signs up more customers than what the network can cope as it is calculated not all customers will be on the phone at the same time. Same with Internet where bandwidth is "oversold". 10,000 customers buying 1Mbps plans could be on a infrastructure of only 10Gbps. These should change too?
May 8, 2017, 1:03 am
#558
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LAS
Programs: 1K---2,909,450 BIS miles
Posts: 214
It has EVERYTHING to do with refundability. An airline has NOT already been compensated for a seat if the ticket is cancelled and a full or partial (price less change fee) refund is given. Thus, unless airlines switch to selling only nonrefundable tickets, your contention -- that it's purportedly "morally wrong" to sell an empty seat after letting a customer cancel and get a partial refund -- makes no sense.
Your analogies are off the mark. You can't skip a sporting event and get a refund, or even a partial refund less a cancellation fee. If you're sick and miss the game, too bad. You get nothing back. If you could get a full or partial refund for a missed sporting event, I have no doubt the team would turn around and sell your seat again.
Your specialized movie theater is an outlier. Most theaters do not offer refunds for short notice cancellations. Plus, I suspect your movie theater sells your ticket again after you cancel it. If not, I also suspect the theater won't stay in business very long.
In this situation, a knowledgeable agent could have come on board and explained that the baby is not allowed to use the 18 year old's ticket because tickets are nontransferable. Letting the guy say over and over on the video that he paid for the seat, without correcting him, is part of what made Delta look so bad. Then, to make matters much worse, the employee threatened the family with arrest. If the front line agents had handled the communication better, this family would have given up quickly and put the baby in a lap, or would have been removed from the plane without compensation, which is what they deserved. Instead, the scammers got compensation and their 15 minutes of fame, all because a Delta employee had no clue how to handle the situation.
Your analogies are off the mark. You can't skip a sporting event and get a refund, or even a partial refund less a cancellation fee. If you're sick and miss the game, too bad. You get nothing back. If you could get a full or partial refund for a missed sporting event, I have no doubt the team would turn around and sell your seat again.
Your specialized movie theater is an outlier. Most theaters do not offer refunds for short notice cancellations. Plus, I suspect your movie theater sells your ticket again after you cancel it. If not, I also suspect the theater won't stay in business very long.
In this situation, a knowledgeable agent could have come on board and explained that the baby is not allowed to use the 18 year old's ticket because tickets are nontransferable. Letting the guy say over and over on the video that he paid for the seat, without correcting him, is part of what made Delta look so bad. Then, to make matters much worse, the employee threatened the family with arrest. If the front line agents had handled the communication better, this family would have given up quickly and put the baby in a lap, or would have been removed from the plane without compensation, which is what they deserved. Instead, the scammers got compensation and their 15 minutes of fame, all because a Delta employee had no clue how to handle the situation.
This post gets the trophy for the BEST ANSWER of the thread, because folks this is the correct and ONLY proper answer ---PERIOD!!! ^^^^^
Coming up with manufactured scenero's such as Jane an Tom went for a canoe ride. Jane fell out and Tom kept paddling, and because Jane couldn't swim Tom gets to keep all of the fish that they both caught. Even if Jane somehow gets rescued she forfeits her share of the fish because she abandoned them, leaving Tom up the creek without a paddle.
May 8, 2017, 3:07 am
#559
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Programs: DL GM
Posts: 515
Of course Delta isn't disputing it. Do you think they want to put up a fight here? They want this to go away as fast as possible and since the video has been taken down, I'm guessing a settlement was agreed upon with a NDA and agreement to remove the video.
Even if Delta put up a fight and disputed everything, they look terrible doing so and would draw even more attention to the topic. Best to take the tiny bank account hit and get it pushed under the rug as fast as possible. Something I'm sure many other enterprising passengers will take note of. We're only a few days beyond the video being released and the only mention of it I've seen anywhere is right here, so obviously Delta was successful. United on the other hand spent a couple days tripping all over itself with PR idiocy before getting a handle on their incident.
May 8, 2017, 4:01 am
#560
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,511
The video wasn't "taken down" across the spectrum.
They did agree in the end to hold the baby in their lap but Jenna said “its come too far” and kicked them off. Conditions she first insisted upon were no longer suitable.
One would expect a noticeable jump cut if edits were made.
They did agree in the end to hold the baby in their lap but Jenna said “its come too far” and kicked them off. Conditions she first insisted upon were no longer suitable.
One would expect a noticeable jump cut if edits were made.
May 8, 2017, 6:13 am
#561
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: DL Scattered Smothered Covered Medallion, Some hotel & car stuff, Kroger Plus Card
Posts: 10,745
Please. You can disagree with the practice, but "moral sin"? That's a bit much. I suppose if you buy a box of 10 cookies at the store and at home find that an 11th cookie ended up in the box, you run straight back to the store to make sure you've paid for the extra cookie, then, right?
Those aren't the right numbers. Overbooking "works out" closer to 99.9% of the time. And it's not just "somehow", it's because the airlines have assessed the ACTUAL numbers to figure out how to run a business where passengers do get exactly what they paid for nearly all the time.
Those aren't the right numbers. Overbooking "works out" closer to 99.9% of the time. And it's not just "somehow", it's because the airlines have assessed the ACTUAL numbers to figure out how to run a business where passengers do get exactly what they paid for nearly all the time.
May 8, 2017, 6:31 am
#562
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 597
[QUOTE=desi;28281778]
"Selling same seat twice is a moral sin."
So, when Uncle Julius dies, assuming he hasn't had the courtesy to plan his demise in advance, the airline can't sell me a last minute ticket - at full fare - so that I can go to the funeral in Peoria? Because all the seats were sold out before my uncle selfishly decided to die?
I have NO problem whatsoever with airlines overselling by a few, knowing that there will be cancellations and no-shows on nearly every flight. So long as they auction off compensation so that those who willingly delay their trip are fairly rewarded for their voluntary sacrifice, I'm good with it.
"Selling same seat twice is a moral sin."
So, when Uncle Julius dies, assuming he hasn't had the courtesy to plan his demise in advance, the airline can't sell me a last minute ticket - at full fare - so that I can go to the funeral in Peoria? Because all the seats were sold out before my uncle selfishly decided to die?
I have NO problem whatsoever with airlines overselling by a few, knowing that there will be cancellations and no-shows on nearly every flight. So long as they auction off compensation so that those who willingly delay their trip are fairly rewarded for their voluntary sacrifice, I'm good with it.
May 9, 2017, 10:46 am
#563
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Brunei
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Posts: 2,201
It has EVERYTHING to do with refundability. An airline has NOT already been compensated for a seat if the ticket is cancelled and a full or partial (price less change fee) refund is given. Thus, unless airlines switch to selling only nonrefundable tickets, your contention -- that it's purportedly "morally wrong" to sell an empty seat after letting a customer cancel and get a partial refund -- makes no sense.
Your analogies are off the mark. You can't skip a sporting event and get a refund, or even a partial refund less a cancellation fee. If you're sick and miss the game, too bad. You get nothing back. If you could get a full or partial refund for a missed sporting event, I have no doubt the team would turn around and sell your seat again.
Your specialized movie theater is an outlier. Most theaters do not offer refunds for short notice cancellations. Plus, I suspect your movie theater sells your ticket again after you cancel it. If not, I also suspect the theater won't stay in business very long.
In this situation, a knowledgeable agent could have come on board and explained that the baby is not allowed to use the 18 year old's ticket because tickets are nontransferable. Letting the guy say over and over on the video that he paid for the seat, without correcting him, is part of what made Delta look so bad. Then, to make matters much worse, the employee threatened the family with arrest. If the front line agents had handled the communication better, this family would have given up quickly and put the baby in a lap, or would have been removed from the plane without compensation, which is what they deserved. Instead, the scammers got compensation and their 15 minutes of fame, all because a Delta employee had no clue how to handle the situation.
Your analogies are off the mark. You can't skip a sporting event and get a refund, or even a partial refund less a cancellation fee. If you're sick and miss the game, too bad. You get nothing back. If you could get a full or partial refund for a missed sporting event, I have no doubt the team would turn around and sell your seat again.
Your specialized movie theater is an outlier. Most theaters do not offer refunds for short notice cancellations. Plus, I suspect your movie theater sells your ticket again after you cancel it. If not, I also suspect the theater won't stay in business very long.
In this situation, a knowledgeable agent could have come on board and explained that the baby is not allowed to use the 18 year old's ticket because tickets are nontransferable. Letting the guy say over and over on the video that he paid for the seat, without correcting him, is part of what made Delta look so bad. Then, to make matters much worse, the employee threatened the family with arrest. If the front line agents had handled the communication better, this family would have given up quickly and put the baby in a lap, or would have been removed from the plane without compensation, which is what they deserved. Instead, the scammers got compensation and their 15 minutes of fame, all because a Delta employee had no clue how to handle the situation.