Regulation (EC) 261/2004 Delayed flight - Delta Air Lines Definitive Thread
Mar 25, 2024, 8:45 pm
#271
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: On the run
Programs: DL 2MM/DM, Hilton LT Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, Marriot Titanium
Posts: 573
Struggling with Delta (or as it seems the team at Air France who they palm their EC261 claims to). Following on from my thread a few weeks ago: EU261 / Duty of care
Facts:
LHR - ATL - TPA (DL33 connecting to DL1253 on 6th March 24)
ATL - TPA had an engine that wouldn't start. Deplaned, and put on a new aircraft, but had to wait for new crew.
Total delay 4hrs23mins
I have emailed said facts to Delta.
The first response is:
The losses point I will argue another time - they have to cover reasonable sustenance costs. We're talking about $20 but it's the prinicpal.
I responded quoting:
Air France v Heinz-Gerke Folkerts and Luz-Tereza Folkerts (C-11/11)
Q and Others v United Airlines, Inc. (C-561/20)
Claudia Wegener v Royal Air Maroc SA. (C-537/17)
To which I have received a copy and paste:
I have replied with the following:
However I'm not convinced that I'm going to get the response I desire...
What is the next step for Delta? Ideally I'd quite like to escalate this before having to go down any legal routes, but I will fight this out of principal.
Facts:
LHR - ATL - TPA (DL33 connecting to DL1253 on 6th March 24)
ATL - TPA had an engine that wouldn't start. Deplaned, and put on a new aircraft, but had to wait for new crew.
Total delay 4hrs23mins
I have emailed said facts to Delta.
The first response is:
The losses point I will argue another time - they have to cover reasonable sustenance costs. We're talking about $20 but it's the prinicpal.
I responded quoting:
Air France v Heinz-Gerke Folkerts and Luz-Tereza Folkerts (C-11/11)
Q and Others v United Airlines, Inc. (C-561/20)
Claudia Wegener v Royal Air Maroc SA. (C-537/17)
To which I have received a copy and paste:
I have replied with the following:
However I'm not convinced that I'm going to get the response I desire...
What is the next step for Delta? Ideally I'd quite like to escalate this before having to go down any legal routes, but I will fight this out of principal.
Delta only understands the language of the law. I had two similar cases (AMS-ATL-JAX), where delta delayed the ATL-JAX flight over 12 hours each time due to its incompetence.
The support cases didn't help, and the service rep even agreed with the interpretation of the law, but ultimately came to incorrect conclusions.
When it comes to EC261 compensation, Delta struck me as particularly deceptive and misleading. Just like you, because of that and out of principle, I did file with the online litigator (skycops). They are now suing Delta in court.
Keep in mind, not every online litigator will want to take this up because its not as easy as just sending one email.
While you are owed compensation in these cases (departure from the EU, delay outside of the EU), this will most likely require suing in court.
The support cases didn't help, and the service rep even agreed with the interpretation of the law, but ultimately came to incorrect conclusions.
When it comes to EC261 compensation, Delta struck me as particularly deceptive and misleading. Just like you, because of that and out of principle, I did file with the online litigator (skycops). They are now suing Delta in court.
Keep in mind, not every online litigator will want to take this up because its not as easy as just sending one email.
While you are owed compensation in these cases (departure from the EU, delay outside of the EU), this will most likely require suing in court.
Mar 26, 2024, 10:57 am
#273
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlanta
Programs: Delta Death March, Hyatt Globalist, IHG Plat, Marriott/Hilton Gold Life
Posts: 1,548
Mar 26, 2024, 11:45 am
#274
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,057
Last edited by moondog; Mar 26, 2024 at 11:51 am
Mar 26, 2024, 2:20 pm
#275
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nottingham
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,333
I’m having a similar issue as you MXP-JFK-CHS back in January, as JFK-CHS cancelled. Delta customer service fails to recognize that trip started in the EU, irrespective if the delay occurred on the US connection. I gave up citing case law as you can’t argue with idiots.
I have looked into suing Delta in an Italian court, but Italy doesn’t allow pro se representation, as I could file my next trip to Milano. I’m sure it costs Delta more to defend a EU261 complaint in a court of law than just paying the claim out. Would be great if you could recover punitive damages of a few million euros on a € 600 claim, as Delta corporate would quickly address the inadequate customer service EU 261 training.
I have looked into suing Delta in an Italian court, but Italy doesn’t allow pro se representation, as I could file my next trip to Milano. I’m sure it costs Delta more to defend a EU261 complaint in a court of law than just paying the claim out. Would be great if you could recover punitive damages of a few million euros on a € 600 claim, as Delta corporate would quickly address the inadequate customer service EU 261 training.
The final (incorrect) response from Delta (well, Air France) was:
I am sorry you are unhappy with our response, however our decision will not change. It fully complies with our obligations under the applicable regulations as well as with the commercial policies of our company. Since the disruption was caused by flight operating by Delta, which departed from Atlanta you are not entitled to compensation under EU Regulation 261/2004.
Mar 26, 2024, 3:01 pm
#276
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: On the run
Programs: DL 2MM/DM, Hilton LT Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, Marriot Titanium
Posts: 573
It looks like Delta is a member of AviationADR, so I have started a case there: https://www.aviationadr.org.uk/
The final (incorrect) response from Delta (well, Air France) was:
The final (incorrect) response from Delta (well, Air France) was:
That would be flights departing the UK. Is there a similar EU alternative dispute resolution?
Apr 11, 2024, 3:16 pm
#277
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nottingham
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,333
It looks like Delta is a member of AviationADR, so I have started a case there: https://www.aviationadr.org.uk/
The final (incorrect) response from Delta (well, Air France) was:
The final (incorrect) response from Delta (well, Air France) was:
I am sorry you are unhappy with our response, however our decision will not change. It fully complies with our obligations under the applicable regulations as well as with the commercial policies of our company. Since the disruption was caused by flight operating by Delta, which departed from Atlanta you are not entitled to compensation under EU Regulation 261/2004.
Dear Sir/Madam,
Delta has reviewed your claim and agrees that you are owed compensation in accordance with Article 7 of the Regulation. Thus, as your Flight DL253, was delayed due to maintenance and you arrived at your destination with a delay of more than 4hrs, you are due compensation in the amount of GBP 520.00. We are currently awaiting Correspondence to confirm compensation has not been paid by Customer Care. Once confirmation is received, payment will be made.
Delta has reviewed your claim and agrees that you are owed compensation in accordance with Article 7 of the Regulation. Thus, as your Flight DL253, was delayed due to maintenance and you arrived at your destination with a delay of more than 4hrs, you are due compensation in the amount of GBP 520.00. We are currently awaiting Correspondence to confirm compensation has not been paid by Customer Care. Once confirmation is received, payment will be made.
Apr 11, 2024, 4:26 pm
#278
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SJC/SFO
Posts: 373
In a similar situation (with a different airline), I complained to the relevant aviation authority in the origin country. That seemed to do the trick. My guess is if enough people did this, the aviation authority would fine the airline, which might make it reconsider breaking the law in the future.
Apr 11, 2024, 4:56 pm
#279
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 979
Well, peristence pays off I guesss, although I can't say I had to do much. Inputing the data into AviationADR was relatively easy. I claimed at the end of March and have just received the following:
To be honest it's downright dishonest for Delta to fob customers off and only change their mind if it goes to dispute resolution. I know full well that they're not alone, but the rules are the rules, so they should abide by them.
To be honest it's downright dishonest for Delta to fob customers off and only change their mind if it goes to dispute resolution. I know full well that they're not alone, but the rules are the rules, so they should abide by them.
Apr 12, 2024, 11:49 am
#280
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,746
What About US Originating Delta Connecting to KLM at US Gateway?
Is any part of an itinerary covered where a US originating DL flight connects with KLM/AF at a US gateway for travel to Europe? For example, Delta from LAX to JFK connecting with AF at JFK.
Apr 12, 2024, 1:07 pm
#281
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 979
Some non-EU to EU destinations fall within the scope of the EC compensation: 1) all flights operated by the EU carrier, and 2) at least one of the flights was operated by the EU carrier.
After case C367/20 was ruled on, the flights TO Europe are eligible for EC261 compensation if at least one of the connecting flights was operated by a Community air carrier.
On 12 November 2020 the CJEU issued an order in this case asking for the clarification of some provisions of Regulation No 261/2004.
The facts of the case concerned passenger travelling from outside of the EU to the EU via connecting flights (NYC-Amsterdam-Hamburg). The first connecting flight was operated by a non-Community air carrier under a code-share agreement, whilst the second one was operated by KLM (Community air carrier)
https://recent-ecl.blogspot.com/2021...er-rights.html
Apr 12, 2024, 1:18 pm
#282
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,746
Yes.
Some non-EU to EU destinations fall within the scope of the EC compensation: 1) all flights operated by the EU carrier, and 2) at least one of the flights was operated by the EU carrier.
After case C367/20 was ruled on, the flights TO Europe are eligible for EC261 compensation if at least one of the connecting flights was operated by a Community air carrier.
On 12 November 2020 the CJEU issued an order in this case asking for the clarification of some provisions of Regulation No 261/2004.
The facts of the case concerned passenger travelling from outside of the EU to the EU via connecting flights (NYC-Amsterdam-Hamburg). The first connecting flight was operated by a non-Community air carrier under a code-share agreement, whilst the second one was operated by KLM (Community air carrier)
https://recent-ecl.blogspot.com/2021...er-rights.html
Some non-EU to EU destinations fall within the scope of the EC compensation: 1) all flights operated by the EU carrier, and 2) at least one of the flights was operated by the EU carrier.
After case C367/20 was ruled on, the flights TO Europe are eligible for EC261 compensation if at least one of the connecting flights was operated by a Community air carrier.
On 12 November 2020 the CJEU issued an order in this case asking for the clarification of some provisions of Regulation No 261/2004.
The facts of the case concerned passenger travelling from outside of the EU to the EU via connecting flights (NYC-Amsterdam-Hamburg). The first connecting flight was operated by a non-Community air carrier under a code-share agreement, whilst the second one was operated by KLM (Community air carrier)
https://recent-ecl.blogspot.com/2021...er-rights.html
Apr 12, 2024, 1:36 pm
#283
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 979
That's what it sounds like. You'll need to claim with KLM, and KLM is not likely going to give in. I'd expect the need to use some of be online solicitors to retrieve this.
Apr 12, 2024, 1:46 pm
#284
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,746
What determines which carrier gets the claim? I would have guessed the claim would have gone to DL.