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-   Delta Air Lines | SkyMiles (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-air-lines-skymiles-665/)
-   -   DL applies for Haneda slots: ATL/LAX/MSP (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-air-lines-skymiles/1761085-dl-applies-haneda-slots-atl-lax-msp.html)

RealHJ May 14, 16 8:05 pm


Originally Posted by FWAAA (Post 26626582)
Sure, HA's existing flight has some strong numbers, but that flight benefits zero percent of the American traveling public. Quite frankly, the US government didn't negotiate valuable HND rights (especially daytime rights) so that a leisure-oriented airline in HI could use those rights to fly Japanese tourists to the islands. Especially when HA could obtain the same economic impact and benefit if it chose to fly from NRT.

HA does fly to NRT.


Originally Posted by FWAAA (Post 26626582)
These very limited frequencies' highest and best use is to enable US business travelers (whose destination is Tokyo) to use the preferred Tokyo airport.

That's a real misuse of the slots. The real benefit of flying to HND is to get connections to all the countless locations which are only served from HND but not from NRT. That is also where reasonable day time arrival time matters in order to make the onward connections.

If anyone is TYO bound, they can just as easily fly to NRT, which is easier and more convenient (choice of two direct and relatively fast trains) to get to the city from anyway than HND (requires multiple train/metro changes), though yes it's a longer distance away.

That is why HA needs the slots from HND. In order to get the maximum economic impact for the US and thus have the most public good, the connections at HND are essential, since the onward destinations served from NRT are many less than from HND. In short, NRT makes sense to fly to if your destination is Tokyo. HND is the place to go if you are traveling onwards to elsewhere in Japan. Same vice versa.

lamont2718 May 15, 16 3:40 am


Originally Posted by RealHJ (Post 26626945)
If anyone is TYO bound, they can just as easily fly to NRT, which is easier and more convenient (choice of two direct and relatively fast trains) to get to the city from anyway than HND (requires multiple train/metro changes), though yes it's a longer distance away.

HND is by far the preferred airport for those who live in Tokyo in terms of speed and convenience. HND is much shorter drive, and by public transport the Keikyu subway line to HND is much easier, cheaper, and faster than any method going to NRT. Literally 11 minutes to Shinagawa and 20 minutes to Tokyo Station. In comparison, very few Japanese travelers prefer taking the N'EX or the Keisei Skyliner to NRT.

HND is like LGA, but even better since it has a fast subway connection to Tokyo.

sbm12 May 15, 16 7:36 am


Originally Posted by FWAAA (Post 26626582)
Sure, HA's existing flight has some strong numbers, but that flight benefits zero percent of the American traveling public. Quite frankly, the US government didn't negotiate valuable HND rights (especially daytime rights) so that a leisure-oriented airline in HI could use those rights to fly Japanese tourists to the islands.

Really? I thought the value requirement was to be for the benefit of the US economy, not specifically for outbound travelers.


Originally Posted by FWAAA (Post 26626582)
These very limited frequencies' highest and best use is to enable US business travelers (whose destination is Tokyo) to use the preferred Tokyo airport.

Where are the numbers which show this? Maybe they exist but I haven't seen them shared. Have you?

Originally Posted by RealHJ (Post 26626945)
In short, NRT makes sense to fly to if your destination is Tokyo. HND is the place to go if you are traveling onwards to elsewhere in Japan. Same vice versa.

This has not been the approach for the HND/NRT split of the past 50ish years. NRT was used as a long-haul connecting hub while HND was more O/D and regional. As for onward destinations, HND and NRT are relatively similar for international routes; HND is more robust for domestic Japan options.

Longboater May 15, 16 8:26 am


Originally Posted by sbm12 (Post 26628289)
Really? I thought the value requirement was to be for the benefit of the US economy, not specifically for outbound travelers.

If it was to the benefit of the US economy, KOA-HND would have been approved in either of the last two slot allocations. A nonstop TYO would serve the economy of West Hawai'i well.

I believe DOT specifically mentioned the slots were in the best interests of business travelers not to primarily leisure travelers. While yes there is business travel between HNL and TYO, is it worth it to sacrifice two of the six HND slots just to serve Hawai'i? At least with LAX-HND there is plenty of onward connections, in addition to the strong local business market. Don't get me wrong, I do not oppose granting HAL a HND slot. In fact, I believe it's necessary especially since NH will be launching daytime HNL-HND. But to give HAL a third of the HND slots while the primary traveler on those routes will be for leisure is ludicrous. DL has a better case of receiving three daytime HND slots than HAL has of receiving two HND slots.

FireEmblemPride May 15, 16 9:39 am

The latest round of arguments makes it pretty difficult to justify giving DL MSP or ATL. The O&D markets are just far too small, and the connectivity offered by EWR and DFW appear superior.

The only thing DL really has going for it is the competition factor, but quantity isn't everything; DL can't remotely expect to be competitive by offering MSP/ATL-HND.

Would have been interesting to see DL apply for LAX/JFK/DTW instead, with them allowing LAX to remain as a nighttime flight.

Fanjet May 15, 16 7:47 pm


Originally Posted by sbm12 (Post 26628289)
Really? I thought the value requirement was to be for the benefit of the US economy, not specifically for outbound travelers.

Nope. The DOT is only concerned about the benefit to the American traveler. It isn't even concerned about the benefit to an airline. And the "local economic impact" concern is the domain of the local civic leaders and Chamber of Commerce. Not the DOT.

RealHJ May 15, 16 9:08 pm


Originally Posted by Fanjet (Post 26631033)
Nope. The DOT is only concerned about the benefit to the American traveler. It isn't even concerned about the benefit to an airline. And the "local economic impact" concern is the domain of the local civic leaders and Chamber of Commerce. Not the DOT.

So in other words, then the local governments should be lobbying DOT to take a more rational stance and consider the economic impact to the US (where obviously bringing high-spending travelers to the US actually has a positive impact, while sending Americans away has at best zero, if not net negative, impact).

ATOBTTR May 15, 16 9:18 pm


Originally Posted by RealHJ (Post 26626945)
HA does fly to NRT.

HA starts flying to NRT in July. They don't fly there yet.

Fanjet May 16, 16 12:17 am


Originally Posted by RealHJ (Post 26631238)
So in other words, then the local governments should be lobbying DOT to take a more rational stance and consider the economic impact to the US (where obviously bringing high-spending travelers to the US actually has a positive impact, while sending Americans away has at best zero, if not net negative, impact).

DOT stands for the Department of Transportation. Not the Department of Tourism. ;)

This would be like all U.S.-London flights having to be flown into LGW except for 5 flights which can use LHR. And then the DOT awards one of the exemptions to MCO-LHR.

BTW, Japanese tourists also visit LA and NYC as well.

pbarnette May 16, 16 1:13 am


Originally Posted by Longboater (Post 26628433)
If it was to the benefit of the US economy, KOA-HND would have been approved in either of the last two slot allocations. A nonstop TYO would serve the economy of West Hawai'i well.

Really? In what way is providing some modest benefit to an area that is likely around 0.05% of the US economy in the best benefit of the US economy? Were the benefit to Western Hawaii that significant, then I'd think they could provide a local subsidy for KOA-NRT, rather than asking the remaining 99.95% of the country to provide them a subsidy.

Longboater May 16, 16 7:12 am


Originally Posted by pbarnette (Post 26631768)
Really? In what way is providing some modest benefit to an area that is likely around 0.05% of the US economy in the best benefit of the US economy? Were the benefit to Western Hawaii that significant, then I'd think they could provide a local subsidy for KOA-NRT, rather than asking the remaining 99.95% of the country to provide them a subsidy.

Subsidy from the Government of Hawai'i? Well, if they had the cash, they would. After JAL ended KOA-NRT several years ago, there was a downturn in business in West Hawai'i. Recently, West Hawai'i has become the prime alternative for Japanese tourists who want to avoid overcrowded Oahu. A nonstop flight to KOA from HND, albeit just three times a week, will do well. There will be a noticeable increase in Japanese tourism in West Hawai'i, which will help the island's economy as a whole.

skyrider117 May 16, 16 10:06 pm

Looks like HA got a night slot.... front page of FT site.

pbarnette May 16, 16 10:48 pm


Originally Posted by Longboater (Post 26632666)
Subsidy from the Government of Hawai'i? Well, if they had the cash, they would.

If the flight will be the economic boon you claim, then shouldn't they borrow the money to spur the associated economic development? Wouldn't such development provide enough incremental tax revenue to repay the bonds?


Originally Posted by Longboater (Post 26632666)
After JAL ended KOA-NRT several years ago, there was a downturn in business in West Hawai'i.

Which means diddly-squat to those that don't live in Hawaii.


Originally Posted by Longboater (Post 26632666)
There will be a noticeable increase in Japanese tourism in West Hawai'i, which will help the island's economy as a whole.

Given the difficulties in the Japanese economy, and given the lack of organic demand for direct TYO-KOA flights at this point, I think that is highly debatable.

readywhenyouare May 17, 16 5:26 am

Some of you have some crow to eat. HA has been awarded KOA-HND. I'm very happy for them. No one has done a better job with HND than HA.

ashill May 17, 16 6:16 am


Originally Posted by readywhenyouare (Post 26637748)
Some of you have some crow to eat. HA has been awarded KOA-HND. I'm very happy for them. No one has done a better job with HND than HA.

HA press release

This reads to me like a pro forma approval of HA's uncontested application for the nighttime slot pair, operated as 3x KOA and 4x HNL. HA's application for the daytime HNL slot is in the competition with everyone else.

The press release makes no mention of dates. Is this effective immediately (i.e. HA can operate the daytime HBL slot it was awarded as a simple, temporary transfer of the existing nighttime slots in addition to this pending completion of the competitive proceeding permanently allocating all six HND rights) or is this the DOT awarding the permanent nighttime routes before announcing the permanent daytime route approvals?

If this is just temporary, it makes perfect sense. Might as well let HA use the uncontested rights in the meantime. Even if it's permanent, it's hard to argue with approving an uncontested application.


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