Convince me: is it still beneficial to play the SkyMiles game?
Oct 11, 2014, 11:51 pm
#31
Join Date: Dec 2011
Programs: DL DM PM
Posts: 2,034
Which works ok this year because you get some of those miles back by flying so say JFK-LHR you get back about 13K as a DM this year. Remember next year you will actually be getting LESS RDM's if you use PWM because you only get RDM's for the Cash paid portion of the flight. So if you use 100K PWM next year you would lose 11K RDMs as a DM, a negative change of 24K miles.
Oct 12, 2014, 1:06 am
#32
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Programs: Frontier Gold, DL estranged 1MMer, Spirit VIP, CO/NW/UA/AA once gold/plat/comped gold now dust.
Posts: 38,151
Re: OP. My reference point is bound to be a little different, as I'm self-funded and decidedly low-rev with maybe 80% leisure/20% business trips (also self-funded). Am not ready to give up on FF programs but DL is definitely booted except for redemptions as of Jan. 1. So thoroughly have they reduced the miles earned by flying that it becomes a non-factor in purchase decisions.
They've obviously decided to treat people who buy lots of sale fares, pile up miles and then redeem for free travel as persona non grata, which IMO is unfair, arrogant and ignores market realities. The sale fare and the saver award are BOTH highly yield-managed, meaning that you got it mainly because there was a good chance of it flying empty otherwise. You need a lot of flexibility to be able to do that, and hunting is best at certain times like spring, fall and early December.
By filling a hard-to-sell seat - even at a low fare - you're very valuable as a customer, and DL doesn't seem to get that anymore.
Some might laugh, but a surprisingly effective FF program has been Spirit's IF you have the credit card and IF you can redeem at the low times. The flying experience isn't great and requires a lot of adapting (reminding me of flying as an air courier two decades ago), and they charge for everything (avoiding them all is an art). OTOH, I could buy as many as 14 of their 5K off-peak RTs on credit-card spend alone and from ATL that could get as far as Denver or Cancun. So far this year I've redeemed on NK to Cabo, LIM, DEN and several others. Outside of the off-peaks and credit card, the program most people see has mediocre standard award mileage costs (though good availability), a bad expiration policy and not enough ways to earn. It's only good for a certain category of customer but can produce lots of award trips off credit-card spend. With Spirit, as with DL, my award seats are those likely to go unsold, but for now Spirit seems to make it easier to get them, at least for cardholders.
With the changes from DL and UA, LCCs have a chance to credibly claim they have a better and MORE generous program for infrequent or low-fare flyers if those LCCs would take the FF programs seriously. For years the legacies used FF programs as a competitive weapon, but now for many people the advantage could shift.
In the meantime, the short answer from me is generally no. But most here are biz travelers and may not get much choice about traveling or realistically about carrier if they live in a hub.
They've obviously decided to treat people who buy lots of sale fares, pile up miles and then redeem for free travel as persona non grata, which IMO is unfair, arrogant and ignores market realities. The sale fare and the saver award are BOTH highly yield-managed, meaning that you got it mainly because there was a good chance of it flying empty otherwise. You need a lot of flexibility to be able to do that, and hunting is best at certain times like spring, fall and early December.
By filling a hard-to-sell seat - even at a low fare - you're very valuable as a customer, and DL doesn't seem to get that anymore.
Some might laugh, but a surprisingly effective FF program has been Spirit's IF you have the credit card and IF you can redeem at the low times. The flying experience isn't great and requires a lot of adapting (reminding me of flying as an air courier two decades ago), and they charge for everything (avoiding them all is an art). OTOH, I could buy as many as 14 of their 5K off-peak RTs on credit-card spend alone and from ATL that could get as far as Denver or Cancun. So far this year I've redeemed on NK to Cabo, LIM, DEN and several others. Outside of the off-peaks and credit card, the program most people see has mediocre standard award mileage costs (though good availability), a bad expiration policy and not enough ways to earn. It's only good for a certain category of customer but can produce lots of award trips off credit-card spend. With Spirit, as with DL, my award seats are those likely to go unsold, but for now Spirit seems to make it easier to get them, at least for cardholders.
With the changes from DL and UA, LCCs have a chance to credibly claim they have a better and MORE generous program for infrequent or low-fare flyers if those LCCs would take the FF programs seriously. For years the legacies used FF programs as a competitive weapon, but now for many people the advantage could shift.
In the meantime, the short answer from me is generally no. But most here are biz travelers and may not get much choice about traveling or realistically about carrier if they live in a hub.
Oct 12, 2014, 3:51 am
#33
Join Date: May 2012
Programs: Hilton Diamond DL Platinum UA 1K, DL Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 500
I would not think of convincing you to stay. I have 1 more TPAC flight with them and then I am done . 2 Million miler and Gold or higher for more then 10 years and mostly higher.
But they put the nail in the coffin this week.. Looking for Saver Awards Economy to Rio and Buenos Aires next July and August. Complete flexibility for a 12 day trip within a 55 day window. Out of those 55 days the Joke of a search engine showed Green for Saver on 5 days. But I could still make it work Click on it to purchase and it comes back at Standard Award on any of those 5 days.
That would be known as Bait and switch in some circles and illegal but certainly not for DL.
By the way all my flights are Business Class.. Just went SFO to BKK through NRT.
On both flights I was unable to get my first choice of a meal . Brought the bread basket around with 1 pretzel roll left that I hate and no effort to come back.
But the cherry on Top, they were unable to provide me with an Ice Cream Sundae. They are so incompetent or cheap that they don't put enough Sundaes on the airplane .
You think that the people up front who are paying 5x the fare could at least get an Ice Cream Sundae.
Not to mention that the FA's could care less . They spend the flight talking and reading and are put out if you ask for something to drink.
Good Bye To DL UA and any Joke American Carrier. I know where I can get great service and meals and new planes for the same price and the hell with the miles. They have made them next to worthless just like the company!
But they put the nail in the coffin this week.. Looking for Saver Awards Economy to Rio and Buenos Aires next July and August. Complete flexibility for a 12 day trip within a 55 day window. Out of those 55 days the Joke of a search engine showed Green for Saver on 5 days. But I could still make it work Click on it to purchase and it comes back at Standard Award on any of those 5 days.
That would be known as Bait and switch in some circles and illegal but certainly not for DL.
By the way all my flights are Business Class.. Just went SFO to BKK through NRT.
On both flights I was unable to get my first choice of a meal . Brought the bread basket around with 1 pretzel roll left that I hate and no effort to come back.
But the cherry on Top, they were unable to provide me with an Ice Cream Sundae. They are so incompetent or cheap that they don't put enough Sundaes on the airplane .
You think that the people up front who are paying 5x the fare could at least get an Ice Cream Sundae.
Not to mention that the FA's could care less . They spend the flight talking and reading and are put out if you ask for something to drink.
Good Bye To DL UA and any Joke American Carrier. I know where I can get great service and meals and new planes for the same price and the hell with the miles. They have made them next to worthless just like the company!
Oct 12, 2014, 7:26 am
#34
Join Date: May 2014
Location: PWM
Programs: Delta PM
Posts: 822
well maine is where I am from and is home, but I live in bangkok and work there now....I still make it to maine a lot though.....
as a PM you will be treated well there and will know all the GA's I would say you will get your upgrade 80% or more out of PWM....as diamond I am batting 100 I think
as a PM you will be treated well there and will know all the GA's I would say you will get your upgrade 80% or more out of PWM....as diamond I am batting 100 I think
To stay on topic, I still think it's worthwhile to "play the game" but check back with me in a few months when I'm looking to finally book a couple saver awards to Sydney. If that proves to be impossible I'll be discouraged.
Oct 31, 2014, 8:43 am
#35
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 46
How do you typically use your RDMs?
I find I like the PWM option to buy up to BE on TATL/TPAC. My employers pays only coach fare so I'll drop a couple hundred k miles to get BE. Yes, I know, this is a lousy redemption rate, but I really don't care about RDMs except to buy up. In your situation, that would be a thing that would keep me with DL because the large number of RDMs means a couple of TATL/TPACs in BE vs coach each year.
I find I like the PWM option to buy up to BE on TATL/TPAC. My employers pays only coach fare so I'll drop a couple hundred k miles to get BE. Yes, I know, this is a lousy redemption rate, but I really don't care about RDMs except to buy up. In your situation, that would be a thing that would keep me with DL because the large number of RDMs means a couple of TATL/TPACs in BE vs coach each year.
I have finally pulled the trigger. I purchased a discounted first class ticket and bought the cost down with miles. It was liberating. Plus I won't have to deal with the annoying upgrade shuffle.
For those of you exercising the PWM option as, dare I say it, an exit strategy, how are you doing it? What's the best value?
Buy first class and use PWM to bring it down to the range of a coach ticket? These itineraries still accumulate miles so it offsets the expense a bit. Or do you just buy coach tickets and say to heck with it all?
And what about the "Upgrade with miles" option that's now available on the website? I'm such a newbie to these things since I've just been a mileage pig, never really redeeming. But now its time. It will be great to go where I want when I want instead of slavishly salivating over miles.
Last edited by bzn; Oct 31, 2014 at 9:01 am Reason: grammar and clarity. Ooof!
Oct 31, 2014, 8:47 am
#36
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 46
Re: OP. My reference point is bound to be a little different, as I'm self-funded and decidedly low-rev with maybe 80% leisure/20% business trips (also self-funded). Am not ready to give up on FF programs but DL is definitely booted except for redemptions as of Jan. 1. So thoroughly have they reduced the miles earned by flying that it becomes a non-factor in purchase decisions.
They've obviously decided to treat people who buy lots of sale fares, pile up miles and then redeem for free travel as persona non grata, which IMO is unfair, arrogant and ignores market realities. The sale fare and the saver award are BOTH highly yield-managed, meaning that you got it mainly because there was a good chance of it flying empty otherwise. You need a lot of flexibility to be able to do that, and hunting is best at certain times like spring, fall and early December.
By filling a hard-to-sell seat - even at a low fare - you're very valuable as a customer, and DL doesn't seem to get that anymore.
They've obviously decided to treat people who buy lots of sale fares, pile up miles and then redeem for free travel as persona non grata, which IMO is unfair, arrogant and ignores market realities. The sale fare and the saver award are BOTH highly yield-managed, meaning that you got it mainly because there was a good chance of it flying empty otherwise. You need a lot of flexibility to be able to do that, and hunting is best at certain times like spring, fall and early December.
By filling a hard-to-sell seat - even at a low fare - you're very valuable as a customer, and DL doesn't seem to get that anymore.
I would not think of convincing you to stay. I have 1 more TPAC flight with them and then I am done . 2 Million miler and Gold or higher for more then 10 years and mostly higher.
But they put the nail in the coffin this week.. Looking for Saver Awards Economy to Rio and Buenos Aires next July and August. Complete flexibility for a 12 day trip within a 55 day window. Out of those 55 days the Joke of a search engine showed Green for Saver on 5 days. But I could still make it work Click on it to purchase and it comes back at Standard Award on any of those 5 days.
That would be known as Bait and switch in some circles and illegal but certainly not for DL.
By the way all my flights are Business Class.. Just went SFO to BKK through NRT.
On both flights I was unable to get my first choice of a meal . Brought the bread basket around with 1 pretzel roll left that I hate and no effort to come back.
But the cherry on Top, they were unable to provide me with an Ice Cream Sundae. They are so incompetent or cheap that they don't put enough Sundaes on the airplane .
You think that the people up front who are paying 5x the fare could at least get an Ice Cream Sundae.
Not to mention that the FA's could care less . They spend the flight talking and reading and are put out if you ask for something to drink.
Good Bye To DL UA and any Joke American Carrier. I know where I can get great service and meals and new planes for the same price and the hell with the miles. They have made them next to worthless just like the company!
But they put the nail in the coffin this week.. Looking for Saver Awards Economy to Rio and Buenos Aires next July and August. Complete flexibility for a 12 day trip within a 55 day window. Out of those 55 days the Joke of a search engine showed Green for Saver on 5 days. But I could still make it work Click on it to purchase and it comes back at Standard Award on any of those 5 days.
That would be known as Bait and switch in some circles and illegal but certainly not for DL.
By the way all my flights are Business Class.. Just went SFO to BKK through NRT.
On both flights I was unable to get my first choice of a meal . Brought the bread basket around with 1 pretzel roll left that I hate and no effort to come back.
But the cherry on Top, they were unable to provide me with an Ice Cream Sundae. They are so incompetent or cheap that they don't put enough Sundaes on the airplane .
You think that the people up front who are paying 5x the fare could at least get an Ice Cream Sundae.
Not to mention that the FA's could care less . They spend the flight talking and reading and are put out if you ask for something to drink.
Good Bye To DL UA and any Joke American Carrier. I know where I can get great service and meals and new planes for the same price and the hell with the miles. They have made them next to worthless just like the company!
We might have been on that same SFO->NRT->BKK flight. Small world. Hahaha.
Oct 31, 2014, 9:55 am
#37
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23,058
I don't understand this mentality either. I've also thought it would be advantageous for the airlines to both advertise and make available those last minute seats for people with flexible schedules. I guess they need to save them in the event of irregular ops? Good tips on Spirit, too, thanks.
Oct 31, 2014, 10:27 am
#39
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 46
I *do* however think that airlines like Delta have gone about as far as they can go in devaluing rewards programs. surely they've done the research and the balance sheet math. It probably doesn't pay to keep them around any longer in an industry where it is dead simple to comparison shop.