Non-Rev really have priority on a SWU over a Plat???
Mar 13, 2013, 4:29 pm
#76
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 223
Thanks altdlff but my questions were more about what was not bolded. I understand the "cleared at the gate" part. What does not seem to be explained in writing is the "if space is available" part.
For example, if SWU UG's must wait until the gate to clear, what is the priority order? Is it the same as dom UGs, eg, elite level, booking date or date of SWU request, does fare come into play here? Or is it something different?
For that matter, just what does "space available" mean? Again, nothing in writing so it is possible it could mean whatever is left over after non-revs are cleared. Not saying this is the case, just wondering how it is defined.
For example, if SWU UG's must wait until the gate to clear, what is the priority order? Is it the same as dom UGs, eg, elite level, booking date or date of SWU request, does fare come into play here? Or is it something different?
For that matter, just what does "space available" mean? Again, nothing in writing so it is possible it could mean whatever is left over after non-revs are cleared. Not saying this is the case, just wondering how it is defined.
Mar 13, 2013, 4:33 pm
#77
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MCO
Programs: DL DM/MM, Marriott Plat Premier, HH Diamond, Hyatt Plat, Hertz PC
Posts: 4,081
Imagine if this were the other way around. After paying more than $4,000 for a ticket, you are told your SWU can not be applied because the BE cabin is full. You go sit in EC while others who paid only $600 to get their seats in BE go sit up front. Who knows why the SWU couldn't be used, maybe the reason is because the entire BE cabin is filled with other pax who paid $600 for their seat. Reason doesn't matter, you paid more than $4K but sit in the back. Hope this makes more sense.
Mar 13, 2013, 4:39 pm
#78
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Programs: DL DM, HH Gold, SPG Gold, Hyatt Plat
Posts: 2,874
The issue that makes people so frustrated is how much more $ you have to spend in order to TRY to use an SWU. A round trip M fare on JFK-HKG is going to be around $4,000 while round trip LUT is going to be $1,200-$1,600. On top of that, you'll need to find advance upgrade inventory available in order to confirm that UG ahead of time, which Delta has been making very scarce. So to use a SWU means you usually run the high risk of paying thousands of dollars to sit in back.
What would make everyone feel better is if Delta charged less for an M fare (or allowed lower fares to be upgradeable) like United and American do. On top of that, they could release the upgrade inventory so people can confirm the UG ahead of time. Then, I don't think anyone would care if non-revs sat up front instead of the seat going empty.
Mar 13, 2013, 4:55 pm
#79
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2011
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What would make everyone feel better is if Delta charged less for an M fare (or allowed lower fares to be upgradeable) like United and American do. On top of that, they could release the upgrade inventory so people can confirm the UG ahead of time. Then, I don't think anyone would care if non-revs sat up front instead of the seat going empty.
I don't care if non-revs sit up front providing on international everyone waitlisted on a SWU has cleared and on domestics all medallions have cleared the upgrade list (which rarely happens on domestic flights). On an international flights paid J and people using SWU's and miles should also get first meal choices at the what they paid for the tickets and take the non-revs and op-ups last.
If someone is paying an M fare and waitlisted for J using a SWU and there is one seat up front available, it should go to the person on the M fare over a non-rev flying for pleasure forking over only $600.
And the DM and PM desk employees should be trained on how to properly code a SWU. We give Delta enough business that this shouldn't be an ongoing problem.
One thing I wish Delta would allow us to do if they won't confirm us into J on an SWU upon booking, is allow us to book the lowest published fare and get waitlisted and if inventory opens up, charge the difference between the published M fare at the time of booking and the fare paid.
Mar 13, 2013, 4:57 pm
#80
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: SEA
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Posts: 2,266
Maybe a silly question, because I'm asking how smart is DL IT: Since Int'l flights don't allow complimentary upgrades like domestic routes, would an Int'l flight that has people waitlisted via SWU populate an upgrade list that the pax could view online or via the delta app prior to the gate - as a domestic flight would have? On other threads about SWUs that weren't coded properly, the first hint for the pax is their place on the upgrade list, i.e. not at/near the top. But I can't recall if any of those were on Int'l flights.
I know DL's internal system will show UP2A/UP2B priority once the pax has checked in, domestic or Int'l, so a pax could call/Tweet an agent to confirm proper coding & allow time for a fix before getting to the gate if something is amiss. Again, not saying this is what happened here, just wondering how easy it would be for a pax to get the peace of mind that things are in order. Given the problems others have had, I wouldn't want to wait until I was at the gate to know if it was coded correctly.
I know DL's internal system will show UP2A/UP2B priority once the pax has checked in, domestic or Int'l, so a pax could call/Tweet an agent to confirm proper coding & allow time for a fix before getting to the gate if something is amiss. Again, not saying this is what happened here, just wondering how easy it would be for a pax to get the peace of mind that things are in order. Given the problems others have had, I wouldn't want to wait until I was at the gate to know if it was coded correctly.
Mar 13, 2013, 5:08 pm
#81
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Thanks altdlff but my questions were more about what was not bolded. I understand the "cleared at the gate" part. What does not seem to be explained in writing is the "if space is available" part.
For example, if SWU UG's must wait until the gate to clear, what is the priority order? Is it the same as dom UGs, eg, elite level, booking date or date of SWU request, does fare come into play here? Or is it something different?
For that matter, just what does "space available" mean? Again, nothing in writing so it is possible it could mean whatever is left over after non-revs are cleared. Not saying this is the case, just wondering how it is defined.
For example, if SWU UG's must wait until the gate to clear, what is the priority order? Is it the same as dom UGs, eg, elite level, booking date or date of SWU request, does fare come into play here? Or is it something different?
For that matter, just what does "space available" mean? Again, nothing in writing so it is possible it could mean whatever is left over after non-revs are cleared. Not saying this is the case, just wondering how it is defined.
I've been told by DM agents in Chisholm that the priority is status, then fare class, then time of request. However, I was once told by a SLC DM agent that a list of about a dozen things determine the priority for domestic free elite FC upgrades at the gate, including check in time, fare (not fare class) paid, MM status, total FF miles, etc. When I questioned it and almost quoted DL's statements about priority for free elite domestic upgrades, she insisted that all this stuff mattered and that it was very complicated, but I should be careful to try to check in at T-24.
Mar 13, 2013, 5:41 pm
#82
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SAV
Programs: Atlanta's hometown airline. A bunch of hotel programs. PetSmart PetPerks.
Posts: 2,531
I have seen an upgrade list on international flights on the GIDS display in DTW and ATL before. I didn't look to see if there was an online upgrade list but have noticed a few times where there has been the upgrade list that flashes right before the standby list. One time I was the only name on it using a SWU so I'm assuming the only people on the international upgrade lists would be SWUs or mileage upgrades (if someone allows it to go to the airport standby list). More flights than not though, I haven't seen an upgrade list and I would guess that is because there are no SWUs awaiting upgrades for the flight. Ill try and take a picture if I can next time I fly to GRU, DXB, JNB, AMS or NRT because those flights seem to be the ones with little upgrade space in advance and most likely candidates to have SWUs go to the gate.
Mar 13, 2013, 6:30 pm
#83
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: DL FO, UA, AA, AsiaMiles, SPG, HHonors
Posts: 7,982
A non-rev is just that, they are providing NO REVENUE on the ticket. The PM or DM is paying for a very expensive ticket with an M+ ticket (AA will upgrade on even the cheapest ticket and it's my understanding their upgrades aren't nearly as hard to use and their highest tier only requires 90K miles a year, not 125K). Not to mention all the revenue they are making off the PM and DM flyer on paid fares throughout the year.
Mar 13, 2013, 6:32 pm
#84
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If they paid for a J seat or used an SWU to upgrade then they would be occupying the seat, otherwise the seat would go out empty or another nonrev would be occupying it. Would it make everyone feel better if the seat just sat empty?
Mar 13, 2013, 7:00 pm
#85
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MCO
Programs: DL DM/MM, Marriott Plat Premier, HH Diamond, Hyatt Plat, Hertz PC
Posts: 4,081
It is my understanding that non-revs fly on a space-available standby basis. Basically they may have to hang out at the airport for 3-4 days but if space clears, they get a seat wherever space is available.
However, you are paying for your seat. Sounds to me like your seat is treated as a space-positive seat, albeit at a huge discount. This means you have a reserved seat, in this case BE, for a cost of $600. If this is true, you are not standby like non-revs. Please correct me if your understanding is different.
Mar 13, 2013, 7:08 pm
#86
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 198
I can believe this for the following reasons: as a lowly FO on an L, U or T fare I will be say 47 of 51 on the upgrade list. Most of my travel is last minute K, M, or B fares, and I fare pretty well in the upgrade game when flying these fares. Not so much on the sLUTs
My understanding from what we were told when DL went to electronic SWUs, including statements from the stage during the ATL DL DO, is that if there is an empty seat, we would get the upgrade, before any nonrevs and without the need for Z (now OP) inventory class.
I've been told by DM agents in Chisholm that the priority is status, then fare class, then time of request. However, I was once told by a SLC DM agent that a list of about a dozen things determine the priority for domestic free elite FC upgrades at the gate, including check in time, fare (not fare class) paid, MM status, total FF miles, etc. When I questioned it and almost quoted DL's statements about priority for free elite domestic upgrades, she insisted that all this stuff mattered and that it was very complicated, but I should be careful to try to check in at T-24.
I've been told by DM agents in Chisholm that the priority is status, then fare class, then time of request. However, I was once told by a SLC DM agent that a list of about a dozen things determine the priority for domestic free elite FC upgrades at the gate, including check in time, fare (not fare class) paid, MM status, total FF miles, etc. When I questioned it and almost quoted DL's statements about priority for free elite domestic upgrades, she insisted that all this stuff mattered and that it was very complicated, but I should be careful to try to check in at T-24.
Mar 13, 2013, 8:21 pm
#87
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Atlanta
Programs: DL:PM - Reserve, 2MM, FC, RW; HH: SILVER MR: SILVER
Posts: 1,225
Thanks altdlff but my questions were more about what was not bolded. I understand the "cleared at the gate" part. What does not seem to be explained in writing is the "if space is available" part.
For example, if SWU UG's must wait until the gate to clear, what is the priority order? Is it the same as dom UGs, eg, elite level, booking date or date of SWU request, does fare come into play here? Or is it something different?
For that matter, just what does "space available" mean? Again, nothing in writing so it is possible it could mean whatever is left over after non-revs are cleared. Not saying this is the case, just wondering how it is defined.
For example, if SWU UG's must wait until the gate to clear, what is the priority order? Is it the same as dom UGs, eg, elite level, booking date or date of SWU request, does fare come into play here? Or is it something different?
For that matter, just what does "space available" mean? Again, nothing in writing so it is possible it could mean whatever is left over after non-revs are cleared. Not saying this is the case, just wondering how it is defined.
"if space is available" would be seats that are still available when the gate agent takes control of the flight.
The priority order for SWUs is the same for both domestic and international flights. The major difference is the fares that the SWU can be applied to. For international flights, SWUs can only be utilized for Y, B and M fares. For domestic flight it can be utilized on fares Y-K.
As far as the priority order on the list, SWU upgrades are ranked in order of DM/PM Medallion level and Fare class - as follows:
1. DM Reserve/DM based on fare class highest to lowest
2. PM Reserve/PM based on fare class highest to lowest
Note: a Diamond Reserve Medallion (DMR) on a Y fare is ranked higher than a Diamond Medallion (DM) on a Y fare. For an international flight using a SWU the priority order is as follows:
1. DMR Y class
2. DM Y class
3. DMR B class
4. DM B class
5. DMR M class
6. DM M class
Platinum Medallions would be next following the same priority ranking.
7. PMR Y class
8. PM Y class
9. PMR B class
10. PM B class
11. PMR M class
12. PM M class
Under normal circumstances, the above is absolutely processed before Non-Rev (NRSA) passengers, and as far as I know, that is NOT going to change anytime soon. There are only a few exceptions to someone ranking higher on the list than a SWU upgrade and that would be for IROP customers or customer that have purchased a FC/BE fare but have not yet been assigned a seat.
Hope that helps!
Mar 13, 2013, 9:09 pm
#88
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 223
Not trying to be snarky here at all, just trying to understand. Agree with you that SWU's will (let's say hopefully) clear before non-revs. As stated here many times, there is no Z(OP) inventory so it is very possible our UG's may not clear at all. Oh, and agree with your exceptions.
It is my understanding that non-revs fly on a space-available standby basis. Basically they may have to hang out at the airport for 3-4 days but if space clears, they get a seat wherever space is available.
However, you are paying for your seat. Sounds to me like your seat is treated as a space-positive seat, albeit at a huge discount. This means you have a reserved seat, in this case BE, for a cost of $600. If this is true, you are not standby like non-revs. Please correct me if your understanding is different.
It is my understanding that non-revs fly on a space-available standby basis. Basically they may have to hang out at the airport for 3-4 days but if space clears, they get a seat wherever space is available.
However, you are paying for your seat. Sounds to me like your seat is treated as a space-positive seat, albeit at a huge discount. This means you have a reserved seat, in this case BE, for a cost of $600. If this is true, you are not standby like non-revs. Please correct me if your understanding is different.
I honestly rarely even fly nonrev anymore. I'm flying to HKG later this month and happily paid $1500 for a seat in Y just because I know that I'll at least arrive there
Mar 13, 2013, 10:53 pm
#89
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: CA/UT
Programs: Delta Gold, Starwood GM
Posts: 710
To ease the budget deficit, the government should make the airline seats used by employees for personal travel a taxable benefit. It would be interesting to see how many revs were sitting up front if they had to pay tax for value received
Mar 13, 2013, 10:57 pm
#90
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Posts: 5,240
This thread as a whole is possibly one of the most misinformed rants I've read on FT in my 8 years here.
It already is 