Inquiry about VDB Offer almost leads to IVDB
Nov 2, 2012, 1:58 pm
#16
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Nov 2, 2012, 2:15 pm
#17
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I think I found the answer to my own question above. The new rules can be read at the following link (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011.../2011-9736.pdf).
In relevant part, the rules provide:
If you are denied boarding involuntarily,
you are entitled to a payment of ‘‘denied
boarding compensation’’ from the airline
unless:
(1) you have not fully complied with the
airline’s ticketing, check-in and
reconfirmation requirements, or you are not
acceptable for transportation under the
airline’s usual rules and practices; or
(2) you are denied boarding because the
flight is canceled; or
(3) you are denied boarding because a
smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for
safety or operational reasons; or
(4) on a flight operated with an aircraft
having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied
boarding due to safety-related weight/balance
restrictions that limit payload; or
(5) you are offered accommodations in a
section of the aircraft other than specified in
your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger
seated in a section for which a lower fare is
charged must be given an appropriate
refund); or
(6) the airline is able to place you on
another flight or flights that are planned to
reach your next stopover or final destination
within one hour of the planned arrival time
of your original flight.
Based on this language, if you are supposed to be on a plane with 61 or more seats and are involuntarily bumped due to weight/balance issues (and they can't get you to your destination within 60 minutes of the planned arrival time of the original flight), you are entitled to the full denied boarding compensation.
In relevant part, the rules provide:
If you are denied boarding involuntarily,
you are entitled to a payment of ‘‘denied
boarding compensation’’ from the airline
unless:
(1) you have not fully complied with the
airline’s ticketing, check-in and
reconfirmation requirements, or you are not
acceptable for transportation under the
airline’s usual rules and practices; or
(2) you are denied boarding because the
flight is canceled; or
(3) you are denied boarding because a
smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for
safety or operational reasons; or
(4) on a flight operated with an aircraft
having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied
boarding due to safety-related weight/balance
restrictions that limit payload; or
(5) you are offered accommodations in a
section of the aircraft other than specified in
your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger
seated in a section for which a lower fare is
charged must be given an appropriate
refund); or
(6) the airline is able to place you on
another flight or flights that are planned to
reach your next stopover or final destination
within one hour of the planned arrival time
of your original flight.
Based on this language, if you are supposed to be on a plane with 61 or more seats and are involuntarily bumped due to weight/balance issues (and they can't get you to your destination within 60 minutes of the planned arrival time of the original flight), you are entitled to the full denied boarding compensation.
Nov 2, 2012, 2:23 pm
#18
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I agree, stating to the agent that you would consider being a VOL is totally different than actually volunteering. I do and would have done the same. If you make it known you are "willing" to consider VDB, the agents are usually happy, just to know they might have some options. But from the time you make your interest known, flight/travel conditions/options (cancellations, seat inventory) all may have changed from when you first considered it. Thus, the landscape of the situation has changed. If in the end, the GA cannot offer you something acceptable (acceptable compensation, good flight alternate, upgrade, etc...), it is your right not to be forced to give up your seat and then let them revert to the next VOL or in worse case the standard policy plucking order. In this case, a Medallion, it would not have been him.
Sorry, but you set yourself up for that. When you inquire if they need volunteers and have them write down your name on their list, the understanding is that you're volunteering.
Most volunteers don't care if it's for overbooking or weight & balance. I've volunteered for former and gladly ended up being bumped for the latter.
If you lose interest in volunteering for whatever reason, do the GA favor and remove your name from the list.
Most volunteers don't care if it's for overbooking or weight & balance. I've volunteered for former and gladly ended up being bumped for the latter.
If you lose interest in volunteering for whatever reason, do the GA favor and remove your name from the list.
I disagree with a sentiment above. Putting your name on the list does not commit you to accepting the bump. When you go on the list, you almost always do not even know what the offer is. How can you accept an offer w/o knowing it.
In all of my bump experience, I have been told the offer when they confirm they need people, at which point I can accept/decline. If they can't get me to my destination soon enough, I decline, and this has never been a problem.
In all of my bump experience, I have been told the offer when they confirm they need people, at which point I can accept/decline. If they can't get me to my destination soon enough, I decline, and this has never been a problem.
Nov 2, 2012, 2:43 pm
#19
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Location: ATL
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Posts: 6,363
I think I found the answer to my own question above. The new rules can be read at the following link (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011.../2011-9736.pdf).
In relevant part, the rules provide: ...
Based on this language, if you are supposed to be on a plane with 61 or more seats and are involuntarily bumped due to weight/balance issues (and they can't get you to your destination within 60 minutes of the planned arrival time of the original flight), you are entitled to the full denied boarding compensation.
In relevant part, the rules provide: ...
Based on this language, if you are supposed to be on a plane with 61 or more seats and are involuntarily bumped due to weight/balance issues (and they can't get you to your destination within 60 minutes of the planned arrival time of the original flight), you are entitled to the full denied boarding compensation.
I think the OP has learned the correct answer, VDB with knoweledge of the follow up, and if things change it is best to let the GA know even when it should not matter.
Nov 2, 2012, 3:03 pm
#20
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I was responding to LBJ's earlier post, which on its face suggested that IVDB compensation rules do not apply to any weight/balance issues (in all fairness to LBJ, however, his/her post might've been made in the context of the OP's question, which involves a 50 seater). While, as far as the OP's particular situation is concerned, the answer is correct, people reading this need to realize that IVDB compensation rules do apply to aircrafts with 61+ passenger seats.
Nov 2, 2012, 3:12 pm
#21
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Just thought I would post this little anecdote as a way to show how it's good to learn the lingo here on FT, and how little some GAs know about the rules around bumps. Sorry, it's long...
I was flying on Monday DTW-PIT. Got to the gate in Detroit and was waiting for a late-arriving aircraft so I could get home. The weather in DTW was comparatively not bad, and it didn't seem to be that bad in Pittsburgh (was around 2pm) yet. GA announces that the flight is oversold and makes a $400 offer for VDB, with seats on the next flight out (about 2 hours later).
I go up and tell him I may be interested and leave my name and seat #. I never hear anything else (was sitting at the gate for 45 more minutes), and in the meantime the weather in PIT takes a turn for the worse. The last 2 flights of the night from DTW-PIT get canceled, and only my flight, and the one after it remain. I decide to get out while I can, but I do not say anything to the GA, as he is clearly busy with something, muttering to himself with a disturbed look on his face (not to mention, as we all know, I never PROMISED to take a bump).
Our CRJ2 shows up. After the "FAA mandated 20 minute crew break" (read union contract) we board. As it turns out, there are empty seats and the GA brings on 2 NSRAs and a stand-by. Then nothing happens for like 25 minutes.
Finally, the GA comes on the plane and starts talking with the FA and the pilots. I'm in 1B so I can hear them discussing weight/balance issues (because the wind is bad in Pittsburgh).
The GA pulls the 2 non-revs off, and then the captain tells the GA to remove two pax. He calls the standby's name and my name. I am, of course, stunned. I say, "I have a confirmed seat and Medallion status (DYKWIA, I know), I can't imagine I am on top of your list." GA responds that because I "volunteered," I was being pulled off.
Thanks to my FT education, I immediately said, "If you pull me off, it's IVDB." He reiterated I was being pulled. I got off the plane and he was working through an attempt at rebooking me. Of course the last flight to PIT that hadn't been canceled was now zeroed out, and I thought I was going to be in big, big trouble. Thankfully, along came a Red Coat, and after I said the magic words: Involuntary Denied Boarding, the Red Coat immediately got me back on the plane. They went and got someone else off who had apparently also volunteered. Good thing I knew that phrase, and good thing there was a redcoat.
Moral of the story, don't' try to earn vouchers during a major weather event. The two NSRA (DL FAs who were trying to get home to PA) are probably still in Detroit.
I was flying on Monday DTW-PIT. Got to the gate in Detroit and was waiting for a late-arriving aircraft so I could get home. The weather in DTW was comparatively not bad, and it didn't seem to be that bad in Pittsburgh (was around 2pm) yet. GA announces that the flight is oversold and makes a $400 offer for VDB, with seats on the next flight out (about 2 hours later).
I go up and tell him I may be interested and leave my name and seat #. I never hear anything else (was sitting at the gate for 45 more minutes), and in the meantime the weather in PIT takes a turn for the worse. The last 2 flights of the night from DTW-PIT get canceled, and only my flight, and the one after it remain. I decide to get out while I can, but I do not say anything to the GA, as he is clearly busy with something, muttering to himself with a disturbed look on his face (not to mention, as we all know, I never PROMISED to take a bump).
Our CRJ2 shows up. After the "FAA mandated 20 minute crew break" (read union contract) we board. As it turns out, there are empty seats and the GA brings on 2 NSRAs and a stand-by. Then nothing happens for like 25 minutes.
Finally, the GA comes on the plane and starts talking with the FA and the pilots. I'm in 1B so I can hear them discussing weight/balance issues (because the wind is bad in Pittsburgh).
The GA pulls the 2 non-revs off, and then the captain tells the GA to remove two pax. He calls the standby's name and my name. I am, of course, stunned. I say, "I have a confirmed seat and Medallion status (DYKWIA, I know), I can't imagine I am on top of your list." GA responds that because I "volunteered," I was being pulled off.
Thanks to my FT education, I immediately said, "If you pull me off, it's IVDB." He reiterated I was being pulled. I got off the plane and he was working through an attempt at rebooking me. Of course the last flight to PIT that hadn't been canceled was now zeroed out, and I thought I was going to be in big, big trouble. Thankfully, along came a Red Coat, and after I said the magic words: Involuntary Denied Boarding, the Red Coat immediately got me back on the plane. They went and got someone else off who had apparently also volunteered. Good thing I knew that phrase, and good thing there was a redcoat.
Moral of the story, don't' try to earn vouchers during a major weather event. The two NSRA (DL FAs who were trying to get home to PA) are probably still in Detroit.
Lesson here either get off the pot or "well you know". This may business is like being a little but pregnant. Either volunteer or don't the gate agent should not have to wade through indecisive Irma's.
Nov 2, 2012, 4:57 pm
#22
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While weight & balance is not IDB via DL's rules, anyone actually get pulled off and given IDB? My guess is that DL would ask for volunteers and VDB them right?
Nov 2, 2012, 7:50 pm
#23
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Always been my experience that they do. Vouchers are cheap (only the hotel & food vouchers really cost them anything), and it's really bad karma to bump paying customers who want to fly when you have people to volunteer.
When the $200-400 flight vouchers end up in the hand of less frequent flyers, it wouldn't surprise me if they actually drive more business to the company.
Nov 2, 2012, 7:56 pm
#24
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If he misunderstood the process before, he surely understands it now.
Nov 2, 2012, 8:10 pm
#25
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I disagree with a sentiment above. Putting your name on the list does not commit you to accepting the bump. When you go on the list, you almost always do not even know what the offer is. How can you accept an offer w/o knowing it.
In all of my bump experience, I have been told the offer when they confirm they need people, at which point I can accept/decline. If they can't get me to my destination soon enough, I decline, and this has never been a problem.
In all of my bump experience, I have been told the offer when they confirm they need people, at which point I can accept/decline. If they can't get me to my destination soon enough, I decline, and this has never been a problem.
One example: Departing IAH after CO DO IV, I knew our flight was overbooked and found three alternatives that would keep me flying through the night & home for work in the morning. The GA had thought nothing was available. I ended up with a larger voucher because he didn't have to cough up hotel & food vouchers. Breakfast ended up being on Delta in their lounge at DFW.
Nov 2, 2012, 11:13 pm
#26
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I told the GA I was interested in hearing the offer and that I may want to volunteer. The GA was obviously over-matched with the flight, it's delay, the oversell situation, the weather, etc. I didn't remove myself from consideration for VDB because: A) I didn't want to throw anything else at him and B) I didn't need to because I never promised anything.
So while I have learned that it is best to remove yourself from the list when you no longer are considering taking a bump, as a Medallion with a confirmed seat, I should not have had to say anything. If you would like proof that this is true, as soon as I said to the red coat that I wanted IVDB (or IDB if your prefer), she immediately put me back on the plane.
My point in creating the thread was simply to point out that if you express interest in accepting a bump, be weary of less experienced GAs essentially writing you off the flight. Even when the "confirmed seat on the next flight out in 2 hours" is no longer possible.
After 3 years of posting on a fairly regular basis and reading daily, I have taken a long break from this Forum. I thought I would get back into it, and begin by sharing this story. Perhaps I was better keeping my experience to myself. That is all.
Nov 3, 2012, 6:22 am
#27
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For those bashing the OP, I think he played it right. When they ask for Vols, smart protocol is " I'd be glad to do it as long as you can get me on flights xxx or yyy and a FC seat" You are fully in your right to ask for that... usually, the GA will then take a peek and say, that should not be a problem or, those are slam full. Then, you certainly have the right to say no thanks. If you are told that it should not be a problem to get you on that flight and then later that changes, you have no obligation whatsoever to Delta.
I promise, I have done this a lot and know how to play it and the OP seemed to have done it about how I would have... once you decide to board, you are not obligated to Delta if a W&B situation arises. They pull Non Revs, then stand bys, then whoever, but it has nothing to do with VOls with status at this point unless they so choose.
The lesson here and it was a good one, is be nice and clear in your dealings with GA's as they are usually good folks and respond in kind, but, if you have one who is attempting to send you down a path you do not like, stand your ground as best as you can and get a Red Coat involved if possible. You may not win em all, but you will win a lot of them...
I promise, I have done this a lot and know how to play it and the OP seemed to have done it about how I would have... once you decide to board, you are not obligated to Delta if a W&B situation arises. They pull Non Revs, then stand bys, then whoever, but it has nothing to do with VOls with status at this point unless they so choose.
The lesson here and it was a good one, is be nice and clear in your dealings with GA's as they are usually good folks and respond in kind, but, if you have one who is attempting to send you down a path you do not like, stand your ground as best as you can and get a Red Coat involved if possible. You may not win em all, but you will win a lot of them...
Nov 3, 2012, 7:10 am
#28
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Originally Posted by LBJ:19608606
I suggest you re-read the IDB rules. If they remove pax due to weight & balance issues, IDB compensation rules do not apply. You'll likely still get some kind of voucher, but they most definitely are not required to give you IDB compensation.
Nov 3, 2012, 8:58 am
#30
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Not always. I have seen a situation on a CR2 where we were all boarded before they realized the weight issue (the pilot blamed it on "the ramp".) They never asked for volunteers and they pulled one guy off. I have no idea what kind of compensation, if any, they gave him. . .but they definitely didn't ask for volunteers.