Skymiles Change Rumor?
Aug 30, 2012, 6:47 pm
#2686
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: Delta GM, Marriott Platinum, Hertz 5*
Posts: 2,530
Thanks for catching my (and autocorrect's) error!
Aug 30, 2012, 7:34 pm
#2687
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: MA
Programs: DL DM/2MM Marriott Platinum, HH Diamond,
Posts: 8,907
To a great degree, yes, it is true of any so-called loyalty program. The airlines, hotels, and car rental agencies, however, have carried it a step beyond. By estabiishing "elite" levels they are not only influencing your present buying decision but also your future ones.
With every purchase that you make, it becomes more difficult not to purchase from that company in the future.
With every purchase that you make, it becomes more difficult not to purchase from that company in the future.
FF programs actually cause inefficiency in the world's aviation transportation systems by enticing countless millions of us to take extra flights to our destinations rather than nonstops.
I am one of those people who flies to Florida from BOS on a DL flight with a connection rather than taking a B6 nonstop. Usually the price is close to the same, and I am almost always upgraded. But who makes more from my $300 fare... DL who has to handle me twice as well as my luggage, or B6 who could fly my avoirdupois through the air for a few less hours of burning fuel.
FF programs are the tail that wags the dog.
Aug 30, 2012, 7:47 pm
#2688
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CHA, MAN;
Programs: Delta DM 1 MM; Hz PC
Posts: 11,169
A few things:
- You're crazy.
- I have literally NEVER found ANY low awards (including partners, any number of connections, at any time of day or night) to ANYWHERE I've ever wanted to go.
- I have gotten an upgrade ONCE, mostly flying K/Q/H/M fares. Award upgrades just ain't gonna happen. Ever.
- You are CRAZY.
Aug 30, 2012, 8:37 pm
#2689
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Marriott Plat, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 16,273
Only to a point. What causes this more is that airlines tend to price non-stops much higher than 1 or 2 stops because of the convenience value.
Aug 30, 2012, 9:15 pm
#2690
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BZN
Programs: AA:LT Platinum DL:LT Gold UA:1P MAR:LT Titanium
Posts: 8,291
The same happens when someone buys a flight with a connection because it's cheaper or because of a mileage run. Also, FF programs *improve* efficiency when they cause a seat to be filled when it otherwise wouldn't have been sold.
Aug 30, 2012, 9:26 pm
#2691
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Planet Earth
Programs: | *G | STE | HGP ♦ | SPG Au | MR Au
Posts: 3,772
If you truly believe that you have fallen for one of the most successful advertising gimmicks ever invented.
No airline, hotel chain, or car rental agency has a loyalty program. They are not interested in your loyalty (and certainly do not give you any in return). They are interested in your future purchases, not your past ones.
I am not condemning this. It is exactly how a business should work.
What any so-called "loyalty program" does is try to lock you in, so that your next purchase is more likely to go to the company which operates it instead of a competitor.
Let's assume that I want to fly TLV-LAS in Business Class next week. I am not going to get a non-stop flight from anyone, so I realize I am going to have to connect somewhere -- either in the States or Europe. This means that convenience is not much of a factor.
Three airlines offer me cheaper fares than Delta, so normally they would have first priority. Guess what? If I choose Delta I get the SkyMiles, which together with the ones I already have, will allow me to upgrade on a future flight.
More than that, I will go from Gold to Platinum status, meaning that I get other (smaller) benefits. Together, yes, they are worth the extra $300 to me so I select Delta for this itinerary.
I could probably get an equivalent deal from other airlines, but Delta (or at least SkyTeam) has a major marketing advantage because of my previous flights, status, and already-earned SkyMiles.
I am not, however, choosing this flight because of loyalty. Nor is Delta offering me these benefits out of loyalty. It is an excellent marketing program for Delta, it gives me somewhat of an advantage, and thus it is the best business deal for both sides.
That is the deciding factor -- not loyalty.
No airline, hotel chain, or car rental agency has a loyalty program. They are not interested in your loyalty (and certainly do not give you any in return). They are interested in your future purchases, not your past ones.
I am not condemning this. It is exactly how a business should work.
What any so-called "loyalty program" does is try to lock you in, so that your next purchase is more likely to go to the company which operates it instead of a competitor.
Let's assume that I want to fly TLV-LAS in Business Class next week. I am not going to get a non-stop flight from anyone, so I realize I am going to have to connect somewhere -- either in the States or Europe. This means that convenience is not much of a factor.
Three airlines offer me cheaper fares than Delta, so normally they would have first priority. Guess what? If I choose Delta I get the SkyMiles, which together with the ones I already have, will allow me to upgrade on a future flight.
More than that, I will go from Gold to Platinum status, meaning that I get other (smaller) benefits. Together, yes, they are worth the extra $300 to me so I select Delta for this itinerary.
I could probably get an equivalent deal from other airlines, but Delta (or at least SkyTeam) has a major marketing advantage because of my previous flights, status, and already-earned SkyMiles.
I am not, however, choosing this flight because of loyalty. Nor is Delta offering me these benefits out of loyalty. It is an excellent marketing program for Delta, it gives me somewhat of an advantage, and thus it is the best business deal for both sides.
That is the deciding factor -- not loyalty.
Another thing that is concerning is DL raising sale fares by 30% YOY and lowering availability for award tickets for the routes I usually fly.
To a great degree, yes, it is true of any so-called loyalty program. The airlines, hotels, and car rental agencies, however, have carried it a step beyond. By estabiishing "elite" levels they are not only influencing your present buying decision but also your future ones.
With every purchase that you make, it becomes more difficult not to purchase from that company in the future.
With every purchase that you make, it becomes more difficult not to purchase from that company in the future.
I am now *G because of it.
FF programs actually cause inefficiency in the world's aviation transportation systems by enticing countless millions of us to take extra flights to our destinations rather than nonstops.
I am one of those people who flies to Florida from BOS on a DL flight with a connection rather than taking a B6 nonstop. Usually the price is close to the same, and I am almost always upgraded. But who makes more from my $300 fare... DL who has to handle me twice as well as my luggage, or B6 who could fly my avoirdupois through the air for a few less hours of burning fuel.
FF programs are the tail that wags the dog.
I am one of those people who flies to Florida from BOS on a DL flight with a connection rather than taking a B6 nonstop. Usually the price is close to the same, and I am almost always upgraded. But who makes more from my $300 fare... DL who has to handle me twice as well as my luggage, or B6 who could fly my avoirdupois through the air for a few less hours of burning fuel.
FF programs are the tail that wags the dog.
The hub and spoke is essential for global traveling. If not, someone could ask why they aren't offering a direct flight from Tasmania to Portland, Maine. Domestic travel is another equation
Last edited by DHalltheway; Aug 30, 2012 at 9:32 pm
Aug 30, 2012, 10:03 pm
#2692
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: Delta GM, Marriott Platinum, Hertz 5*
Posts: 2,530
Everything you say is correct, but the point that I have been making for years is that FF programs are a marketing advantage ONLY if every airline did not have one. For everyone like you, Dovster, and me who are sucked into the DL/Skyteam vortex, there is another individual just like us who makes that same TLV-LAS trip by connecting in London/Chicago or EWR.FF programs actually cause inefficiency in the world's aviation transportation systems by enticing countless millions of us to take extra flights to our destinations rather than nonstops.
In other words, people make rational decisions based on their own private cost/benefit analysis. Loyalty provides auxiliary benefits that are worth paying a slight premium for, but this hides the true impact of pricing changes to an airline. What is worth a slight premium today may easily translate into a WN purchase tomorrow, with little to no warning to DL.
Last edited by dcline414; Aug 31, 2012 at 10:37 am Reason: Android keyboard sucks
Aug 30, 2012, 10:45 pm
#2693
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Posts: 10,003
To a great degree, yes, it is true of any so-called loyalty program. The airlines, hotels, and car rental agencies, however, have carried it a step beyond. By estabiishing "elite" levels they are not only influencing your present buying decision but also your future ones.
With every purchase that you make, it becomes more difficult not to purchase from that company in the future.
With every purchase that you make, it becomes more difficult not to purchase from that company in the future.
Aug 31, 2012, 9:31 am
#2694
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: MA
Programs: DL DM/2MM Marriott Platinum, HH Diamond,
Posts: 8,907
What if an airline says to other carriers' FF elites, "We will give all you other elites privileges on DL, not a challenge, but privileges." Essentially, that is what AS does with DL flyers. And I have flown on AS a half dozen times over the past two years because I get my precious DL MQMs, early boarding, upgrades etc. Otherwise, I would have flown to PDX and SEA via SLC.
Aug 31, 2012, 9:36 am
#2695
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: MA
Programs: DL DM/2MM Marriott Platinum, HH Diamond,
Posts: 8,907
I would counter that the inefficiency actually created is just "stickiness" of pricing.
In other words, p9eople make rational decisions based on their own private cost/benefit analysis. Loyalty provides auxiliary benefits that are worth paying a slight premium for, but this hides the true impact of pricing changes to an airline.What is worth a slight premium today may easily translate into a WN purchase tomorrow, with little to no warning to DL.
In other words, p9eople make rational decisions based on their own private cost/benefit analysis. Loyalty provides auxiliary benefits that are worth paying a slight premium for, but this hides the true impact of pricing changes to an airline.What is worth a slight premium today may easily translate into a WN purchase tomorrow, with little to no warning to DL.
Aug 31, 2012, 10:05 am
#2696
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: JFK/LGA/EWR
Posts: 1,296
Say a DL flyer has to fly from BOS to TPA. Yes, the seat gets filled from BOS to ATL and ATL on to TPA. But you assume that those seats would not have been filled otherwise if there were no FF programs. But what about the UA/CO passenger in BOS that needs to go to ATL. Right now, he takes a flight through EWR or IAD to get to ATL. Absent FF programs, he would have been on the DL nonstop to ATL.
What if an airline says to other carriers' FF elites, "We will give all you other elites privileges on DL, not a challenge, but privileges." Essentially, that is what AS does with DL flyers. And I have flown on AS a half dozen times over the past two years because I get my precious DL MQMs, early boarding, upgrades etc. Otherwise, I would have flown to PDX and SEA via SLC.
What if an airline says to other carriers' FF elites, "We will give all you other elites privileges on DL, not a challenge, but privileges." Essentially, that is what AS does with DL flyers. And I have flown on AS a half dozen times over the past two years because I get my precious DL MQMs, early boarding, upgrades etc. Otherwise, I would have flown to PDX and SEA via SLC.
Aug 31, 2012, 10:12 am
#2697
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,644
Aug 31, 2012, 10:15 am
#2698
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BZN
Programs: AA:LT Platinum DL:LT Gold UA:1P MAR:LT Titanium
Posts: 8,291
Say a DL flyer has to fly from BOS to TPA. Yes, the seat gets filled from BOS to ATL and ATL on to TPA. But you assume that those seats would not have been filled otherwise if there were no FF programs. But what about the UA/CO passenger in BOS that needs to go to ATL. Right now, he takes a flight through EWR or IAD to get to ATL. Absent FF programs, he would have been on the DL nonstop to ATL.
Sep 1, 2012, 8:33 am
#2699
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: MA
Programs: DL DM/2MM Marriott Platinum, HH Diamond,
Posts: 8,907
I had my epiphany moment in thinking about FF programs and how they have had a Pavlovian effect on so many of us, me included, while waiting in SLC for a flight to BOS. The inbound flight from SFO was delayed about an hour, and it was before the GIDS screens listed all the connections. So as I watched the pax leave the delayed inbound, I was struck by the connection requests to the Red Coat from many of the early exiting (the FC cabin) passengers... SAN, LAX, SEA, PHX!
The point is that these passengers chose a connection through SLC to places that they could have flown to on another carrier's nonstop on what could have been a one hour flight. Even if their connection in SLC had gone smoothly, they were taking three to four hours to do what they could have done in one hour. I am willing to bet that many of these people charge hundreds of dollars an hour for their services in their professional lives, yet they select a travel process that wastes hours of their time for DL FF miles and MQMs and a chance at a FC seat. And they chance the ultimately indignity, thankfully rare, of a missed connection requiring an unplanned overnight stay. Believe me, I ain't preaching... I have done this many times. I have flown from BOSORD via DTW or CVG. I have flown BOSBWI via DTW.
What if the airlines all said that FF miles would be allotted based on origin and destination, and not by the mileage of each segment?
The point is that these passengers chose a connection through SLC to places that they could have flown to on another carrier's nonstop on what could have been a one hour flight. Even if their connection in SLC had gone smoothly, they were taking three to four hours to do what they could have done in one hour. I am willing to bet that many of these people charge hundreds of dollars an hour for their services in their professional lives, yet they select a travel process that wastes hours of their time for DL FF miles and MQMs and a chance at a FC seat. And they chance the ultimately indignity, thankfully rare, of a missed connection requiring an unplanned overnight stay. Believe me, I ain't preaching... I have done this many times. I have flown from BOSORD via DTW or CVG. I have flown BOSBWI via DTW.
What if the airlines all said that FF miles would be allotted based on origin and destination, and not by the mileage of each segment?
Sep 1, 2012, 8:34 am
#2700
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: MA
Programs: DL DM/2MM Marriott Platinum, HH Diamond,
Posts: 8,907