oh912flyer

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/s...ore/52139264/1

In thinking about how this will affect DL, this isn't good. The first flight out of CMH leaves at 6am. That means the crew needs to have landed no later than what, 8pm the night before?

Which means the crew landing at 11:40pm (last flight) can now not leave until what, 9:40 the next morning?

What will happen is that that last flight will leave ATL earlier, and land earlier. Which will mean more missed connections for folks, and, more importantly, when we sat and waited 15 minutes in ATL for folks last week who were on a delayed inbound from MIA... they wont wait any more.

Yet another instance of the government doing something that will have horrible unintended consequences for the rest of us.

53flyer

The new rules will make it really tough for pilots who commute (which was one of the issues that drove the change)

AirlineDeregulation

I disagree. It means that Delta (and all the other airlines) will have to rework their crew schedules to accommodate the change. I don't think this will come at the expense of late night flights.

Furthermore, if this makes us safer as the flying public, I am all in favor of it. It seems like this is not very controversial from the stories I have been reading.

tvnwz

Usually the first flight out is operated by a crew who came in earlier in the day and overnighted, not the last crew in. The last crew in will take a mid-morning or afternoon flight.

The new rules will mean more pilots, more expense and ultimately higher fares.

lsugolfer

Usually that last flight in is not the same crew as the first flight out.

For instance BTR has typically 7 daily flights to/from ATL. On a Monday, there are 3 flights that arrive after the last departure to ATL, so each of those 3 crews overnights in BTR. They operate on FIFO model for Tuesday morning's departures, so the crew that arrived in BTR at 7:45pm Monday is departing on the 6:30a flight Tuesday. The 9:30p arrival crew on the 8:45a, and the 10:45p crew on the 10:30a. The next four flights on Tuesday do a turn back to ATL.

motytrah

I stopped buying the gloom and doom predictions. Waiting on the ground rules were supposed to bring mass hysteria. That didn't happen. I think the airlines will work it out.

oh912flyer

I know this, but I know that it's also not a "mid-morning" flight as some have claimed, based on the metal sat at the gate, which are all different and therefore require different pilots.

oh912flyer

Yes it will, because you're not thinking this through.

DL flies different planes. Pilots tend to fly one type. This is especially true of course at non-hub cities since half the flights are DL Connection, not true DL.

So, look at an example. The RJ flight in that arrives at 11pm and might leave at 8am the next morning. Now, the flight basically has to leave an hour later, and arrive in the night before an hour earlier.

And here's where you're missing the point.

That RJ the night before... the crew didn't start in DTW. It's been flying the RJ all day. Which means for the RJ to depart DTW earlier, it has to depart its previous city an hour earlier. Etc.

DL will have a choice -- more crews, or fewer flights. We're already near capacity, which means more crews. Which means more $$$ for a ticket.

Which is the unintended consequence.

Or the dreaded third option: less time between flights during the day, more missed connections (FTers! This will mean less chance for VDB certs! Now you know why they are being degraded! )

All I am saying is that this hasn't been thought through. And the only reason the pilots unions are in favor of this is because they think it will lead to more pilots being hired (e.g., more dues). How else do you explain their outrage over this not being applied to cargo planes (where the pilots sleep all day and work nights anyway, so it's not an issue!).

Lastly, there's another unintended consequence that I think is real, and is far more likely to result in pilots not getting enough sleep.

With a 10 hour rest period, there's far more chance the pilot hits the bar when he/she gets to the hotel as they now have a "couple of extra hours". No, I'm not talking about drunk pilots, I am talking about tired pilots. If they spend a couple of hours relaxing and drinking soda they're still getting the same amount of sleep as they are currently.

So what did we fix exactly?

djk7

Even under the existing rules, a crew landing at 11:40pm would not be able to fly the 6:00am flight.

I hope the rules are better written than the article.

I doubt many pilots would be able to manage that.

The article only mentions deadheading, which is not the same as commuting. Of course what really matters is what the rule says, so it would be interesting to find that out.

SSF556

Someone in DC...is sitting around thinking about what they can do to destroy the airline industry.

They are doing the same thing to the diesel engine industry....

n301dp

That's incorrect. Many airlines have scheduled pilot lines do exactly that. They are commonly referred to as "highspeeds," "standups," or the more official "Continuous Duty Overnight" (CDO). In this situation, the pilot is technically considered to be "on-duty" during the short overnight. It's quite common at the regionals, less so at the majors.

In its NPRM form, I know of several airlines that were predicting the need to hire an additional 25-30% of their pilot base to cover the new rules. I'm guessing that number won't be as high as their estimates, but they will have to hire more butts to fill those seats. The reciprocal would be a reduction in schedule...which might be the case as well.

Expect this to have a greater effect on regionals.

oh912flyer

Umm, they are doing the same with every industry...

n301dp

I doubt this rule is set to destroy anything...rather, it's a valid safety concern required since airlines don't want to invest in it. I've flown (albeit in small airplanes) fatigued and can guarantee to you that I missed important things having to do with safety of flight.

Would you do your job 3-4 days in a row out of hotel rooms on 4-6 hours of sleep a night in strange hotel rooms?

Josher747

Thats a pretty selfish statement to make. Working 16 hours straight, then going on 8 hours of "rest" which includes 15min walk/wait for van, 15 min van ride, shower/ironing/etc....sleep....shower/prepare/15min van ride, is extremely fatiguing.

If airlines could work their crews in a less-fatiguing way without government regulation, there wouldn't be a need for it.

oh912flyer

Both you and the poster above make the same mistake. Just because the govt. mandates 10 hrs between flights instead of 8, doesn't mean the pilot is actually getting any more sleep!