DeltaFan4Now

As an additional thought experiment to the sentiments expressed in post #30, I have to wonder - if a greater percentage of F were paid (causing an excruciating number of "I didn't get upgraded" threads, I'm sure ) then would domestic F ever improve? Or would Delta pocket the $$ and wait until a year or so after their competitors improved their soft product to do anything about it?

On the other side of that coin, to what extent is the US domestic soft product in F a function of that which the market (and that includes us FTers) truly wants? Now if we were to pay for F based on the >1.5X increase in the real estate we occupy on the plane (a reasonable proposition from a business perspective) and an additional premium for the added service in F, I think most would be hard-pressed to be able to justify the differential in F fare to get real glasses, marginally edible meals, the snack basket and alcohol... Of course as others have noted, that difference shrinks or inverts for purchases close to departure.

jamesteroh

I don't know how DL could cut the domestic F product much more. A friend of mine flew American recently in First and showed me a menu he had gotten on board. They actually do a printed menu detailing the offerings including a prearrival beverage. He said that they also do sundaes on longer flights or fresh baked cookies on shorter flights. In domestic first I have never had a menu (which I understand can be hard for Delta to do seeing they wouldn't know what would be served until after the plane is catered) and have never had sundaes, hot peanuts or fresh baked cookies offered to me.

One thing I wish Delta would do is to allow people actually paying for a first class ticket to either be able to select their meal choice online at check in or be offered the first selection. I flew 4 segments recently on a paid first class ticket (both P fares, one was a dtw/las RT and the other DTW/SFO rt) and on two of the four segments they didn't have a meal choice when they got to my seat. On the SFO/DTW flight the FA took meal orders from all the diamonds first and then just did front to back and my meal choice wasn't available when she got to me (PM on a paid fare). I have no problems with Diamonds getting offered their meal choice before others being upgraded, and in fact think it's fair seeing their loyalty, however anyone on a paid first ticket should be given first choice regardless of their elite level, or even if they are not a SM member at all. It is irritating when you are paying to be in first and the FA gives others on a free upgrade their choice first. On the flight I also noticed she recognized the diamond members and thanked them, which Delta should also do for a paid F ticket.

It's my understanding the US uses plastic instead of glass for their drink service in F, so their first class product might be even lower than Deltas.

mbarreto

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think meal service has anything to do with the quality of the F product, and making it worth the extra $$$. No matter how much they improve it, it's still going to be cheap airline food.

Now: give me Priority Wifi bandwith (free), a nice drink/wine selection, working power ports, a nice IFE system, keep the screaming kids and the foot-in-the-bulkhead people away from the cabin, professional service... and we might have a F product that's attractive to actual paid F business customers.

If that happens, then even getting away with the free upgrades would be acceptable, something similar to what AA does. But if you're going to have the F product we have today, might as well give it away for free.

nytraveller53

I've never understood why WiFi isn't free in First class...

shiner

It isn't common for me to "buy" a first class ticket. When it happens it is most likely due to the fact that it is the only ticket left.

The people I know that do pay for full-F fall into a couple of categories. First, consultants, speakers, or lawyers that have F tickets paid for as part of a contract regardless of duration or routing. Second, people that are paying for international business class and connecting to or from an international gateway. For something like MSP-ORD, I can't imagine anyone spends their own money for full-F unless they have a LOT more money than I do.

StayingHomeIsBetter

I would be astounded to see DL management treat a P fare any differently than an A fare in the case of an IROP.

Look at how they are marketed. You are told that you are buying an UPGRADE, to the FC cabin.

DL management may be quite lax with respect to standards of care within the IT function, but they have demonstrated that they are quite exacting when it comes to providing themselves legal cover via the printed word.

The "DL management wouldn't do anything wrong" folks are going to be gobsmacked the first time they end up in the back of the bus on a P fare.

Hopefully, when this abuse of customer trust becomes apparent, it will help bring an earlier end to this ill-considered experiment.

It still amazes me that DL management does not see the likelihood, should FCM succeed, that it will further disincentivize the purchase of true, full F fares. But, then, they have yet to demonstrate a true understanding of the law of unintended consequences.

FCM is a tacit admission that DL's FC product, while good enough for "free UG class" or "I got up front for $19 more" class, is not a true FC product.

jamesteroh

Is it free on any carrier in F? I agree it should be free in F and for higher level elites who don't get upgraded or on one cabin flights. Southwest provides it for free for a-list select passengers now, but on WN not many planes are wi-fi equiped and also they don't offer much in value to their a-list customers in benefits, I would rather have the benefits of even FO with Delta than the benefits you get with a-list select on WN.

sbagdon

This is flame-bait, yet I respectfully disagree with you. P/A is -UP, so my personal opinion is paid-F (including award), Elite-upgrade, then (-UP)-F.

I've flown paid-F once. Not A, or P... F. Had a VDB voucher lying around, it was one of those $450 F-fares, so it was the choice between more for Y and keep the voucher, or use the voucher and net-less. It was a rather interesting experience, being able to pick a seat at purchase, and not have to wait for the EUA. Watching the seat map approaching EUA runs, I'm guessing I was the only paid/award-F customer in the cabin.

I've flown once internationally that wasn't direct, it was award-First (3-cabin), and I didn't see any service differences on the domestic legs. It was still FEBO on the meal choice, and watching the seat map, there were only about 3-to-4 other booked-into-F pax (domestic and international segments).

Under the right circumstances, for the right amount, and at the right time, I'd have no issues doing a purchase/award-F. Yet the circumstances would have to be unique.

KyRoamer

Am flying ATL-EWR and LGA-ATL shortly with upgrades confirmed. My wife is Silver and her upgrades have yet to come through. For a 2.5 hour flight we'd never pay for first. We did buy her a slightly higher class of ticket to improve her chances. Will soon know if it worked. Otherwise we will fight over who should sit up front. Hopefully she will agree to take my seat but she rarely does.

avidflyer

For a 1.5 hr (flight time) flight you will split up? I would just sit in Y with the wife if the UG does not come through..My Ex used to never take the one UG seat either...my Ex

AMA

Buy Y-ups, A fares and upgrades to save money on most flights and figure that every once in a while, IROPS will require you to buy a new ticket mid-stream, and at that, usually one-way or short hop, for the affected leg. Depending upon where you are in your trip, you might be able to salvage remaining legs of the trip, too.

Overall average is much cheaper and you still get to sit up front, even in chaotic times.

mnredfox

I'd only pay for F if it was only $5 more/hour. Call me cheap, but I can survive long hauls in Y, not comfortable yes but survivable.

NCommander

I'll throw my two cents in. DL's domestic F product is extremely weak as others around here have brought up. I've flown domestic F on DL, US, CO, and UA (I haven't flown AA in many years so I can't comment on their product). In order, here's how I'd rate them:

UA p.s. C (have not flown p.s. F with them)
CO domestic F
UA domestic F
US A320 3.5h flight F
DL domestic F
US other equipment F

Of that list, the only two I would consider buying at a premium over Y is CO's domestic F, and UA p.s. CO has printed menus, extremely comfortable seats, free direcTV for F, and actually feels like a premium cabin, even though they have plenty of EUAs. I regularly fly PDX-EWR on CO, and I've seen the cabin sell quite a few F (or at least Y/B upgrades) on this route, and its not an elite heavy route; I've cleared it as a 1P gold about 75% of the time.

UA F is pretty decent, but I've found that the larger seat benefit is semi-negated with E+.

US's F product is simply a better seat (although admittedly, one of the most comfortable seats I've ever put my butt in); its pretty much the definition of upgrade class, with meals only offered on 3.5h flight.

I have however bought US F before as they've had A fares low enough that made it a no-brainier over their economy fares (PDX-PBI seems to fare out very low on this route for US F).

golfguy714

I have bought full fare first class tickets several times for vacations with my wife. I have status and she does not yet, so if was worth it to me to be sure that we both had first class seats and not have to hope that the upgrade would clear. I still have my silver medallion bag tag on my lap top bag and a DYKWIA diamond actually ask me how I got into first class a month ago on a sold out ATL to LAS flight. I had to tell him that some people actually buy first class seats!

DLATL777

This is often why the 77L flights from LAX to ATL are doing better; that flight alone sells more then 50% up front. Why? Because you get a little bit more what you are paying for. I literally laugh out loud at the thought of somebody actually paying to sit in the front of a domestic 767-300 when they could be more comfortable in an exit row.