Layover and Stopover Rules
Jul 22, 2011, 11:32 pm
#31
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I got the "published fare" rule straight from the horse's mouth when I was on the phone with a Delta rep while booking my itinerary. She put me on hold for 20 minutes and supposedly had an extensive conversation with the "fare desk" or something about why my award was coming out at 85K rather than 60K. Turns out it was because I was not going through either of the two connections that were published from origin to destination.
The lesson I am learning from this is that there is absolutely no way to know if an award trip with stopovers is bookable until you call and see if the individual Delta rep will book it for you or not. So far no one has proposed a definitive ruling on stopover allowance. I do not mean that statement to be insulting, but rather to highlight that there is no rule to follow when building an itinerary, no way to know with certainty whether an itinerary is valid until one calls and tries to book it.
The lesson I am learning from this is that there is absolutely no way to know if an award trip with stopovers is bookable until you call and see if the individual Delta rep will book it for you or not. So far no one has proposed a definitive ruling on stopover allowance. I do not mean that statement to be insulting, but rather to highlight that there is no rule to follow when building an itinerary, no way to know with certainty whether an itinerary is valid until one calls and tries to book it.
Jul 22, 2011, 11:54 pm
#32
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In a very real sense I think you are right. And the rule is "If you don't get the answer you want, call back." It helps to do a lot of reading, like you have done, with examples. Realizing that routing oneself via YUL makes me realize "Can I also do it via YYZ" or similar questions.
With my SIT example, the rep told me a) it was not possible to book the AS flight I needed and b) the stopover in SIT was raising the mileage needed. In fact, neither was correct. The online support department figured out how to book the AS flight I needed (to keep my connection in SEA <4 hours) and I knew once that was fixed my stopover in SIT on the return would price out at just 25K miles.
With my SIT example, the rep told me a) it was not possible to book the AS flight I needed and b) the stopover in SIT was raising the mileage needed. In fact, neither was correct. The online support department figured out how to book the AS flight I needed (to keep my connection in SEA <4 hours) and I knew once that was fixed my stopover in SIT on the return would price out at just 25K miles.
Jul 23, 2011, 8:48 am
#33
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The lesson I am learning from this is that there is absolutely no way to know if an award trip with stopovers is bookable until you call and see if the individual Delta rep will book it for you or not. So far no one has proposed a definitive ruling on stopover allowance.
It seems like there should be an easily-accessible resource for this on Delta.com whereby for any given city pair, one can see the valid routing/connection cities for travel between those two airports.
But that would make it way too simple.
Just like clearly stating in the fare rules whether a fare is refundable or not, which is also quite obscure.
Jul 23, 2011, 9:09 am
#34
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Thank you for your helpful replies. At least we can be definitive on the fact that it is not definitive. 
So, perhaps a safely worded rule is that "A stopover can definitely occur at any city that is part of a published route (online) from the origin to the destination in either direction. However, in certain cases, other cities can also be used as stopovers. These 'other cities' must be confirmed as valid by a Delta representative at the time of booking".
So, perhaps a safely worded rule is that "A stopover can definitely occur at any city that is part of a published route (online) from the origin to the destination in either direction. However, in certain cases, other cities can also be used as stopovers. These 'other cities' must be confirmed as valid by a Delta representative at the time of booking".
Jul 23, 2011, 9:28 am
#35
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For international travel, the rule basically amounts to stay with in the MPM. We did troubleshoot a situation recently where someone was trying to get to somewhere in Scandinavia and DL had an MPM that was absurdly close to the great circle mileage (like within 50 miles or something equally crazy), meaning that routing was only legal via one DL hub (DTW, iirc). KL publishes routings listing where connections (formally called transfers in the routing/fare rules) can occur, so I encouraged that poster to try to persuade the DL agent to use the KL routing rules on an exceptional basis, since DTW-AMS (or vv) wasn't available on his required date but plenty of other US-AMS flights were.
As to thepointsguy's BCN-CDG-YUL-JFK, how it's legal is very simple. The mileage is 4301 and the MPM is 4592. Doesn't matter that the routing doesn't make perfect sense.
Finally, relative to the question of whether transfer locations make a difference in resetting the MPM, the answer is no and I think that's pretty unequivocal. You've got an origin and destination, and the transfer points create the segments that contribute to the cumulative miles. About the only way you can make clever use of a transfer point is to basically make it the destination if that buys you more MPM. Of course, with only one stopover allowed, you'll have issues leveraging such an event, but maybe an open jaw could come into play. For domestic awards, it seems that routing rules are (usually) off the table, as long as there exists a published routing, you can probably book something that's not really indirect even if it's not the officially sanctioned routing. This winter we had the unfortunate situation of someone who wanted to fly between two cities for which DL had destroyed all valid routings by making one of those cities served only from ATL, and the only published routing was via MEM. Thus, the award was pricing out as two round-trips, both with ATL as one of the end points. (Revenue tickets were also pricing that way because of the stupid routing rule.)
As to thepointsguy's BCN-CDG-YUL-JFK, how it's legal is very simple. The mileage is 4301 and the MPM is 4592. Doesn't matter that the routing doesn't make perfect sense.
Finally, relative to the question of whether transfer locations make a difference in resetting the MPM, the answer is no and I think that's pretty unequivocal. You've got an origin and destination, and the transfer points create the segments that contribute to the cumulative miles. About the only way you can make clever use of a transfer point is to basically make it the destination if that buys you more MPM. Of course, with only one stopover allowed, you'll have issues leveraging such an event, but maybe an open jaw could come into play. For domestic awards, it seems that routing rules are (usually) off the table, as long as there exists a published routing, you can probably book something that's not really indirect even if it's not the officially sanctioned routing. This winter we had the unfortunate situation of someone who wanted to fly between two cities for which DL had destroyed all valid routings by making one of those cities served only from ATL, and the only published routing was via MEM. Thus, the award was pricing out as two round-trips, both with ATL as one of the end points. (Revenue tickets were also pricing that way because of the stupid routing rule.)
Jul 23, 2011, 9:34 am
#36
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I would have to respectfully disagree with the above. You cannot stop in any cities you desire as long as they are within the MPM. Certain (most) cities are not allowed because they are not part of a published route. I experienced this problem first-hand.
There appear to be two general rules that must be met when booking stopovers:
1) Total trip must be within MPM limit (or +5% or whatever. Delta does not seem to be overly anal about this).
2) Stopovers cannot occur in most cities. Can definitely occur in cities that are part of published fare between origin and destination. May be possible in other cities but depends on what agent says.
Here is a simple example: You can't go NYC - Moscow - Athens on SkyTeam with a stopover in Moscow, at least not on one single award booking. This is because Moscow is not a valid stopover between NYC and Athens as it is not part of a published fare. I guess a rebellious ticketing agent might allow it, but it should not be expected. Let's also assume for the sake of the example that this trip is within MPM limits.
The reason the Scandinavian flight you mention was allowed was because AMS is a legal stopover between NYC and some Scandinavian city. The MPM issue is quirky and can be circumvented because other published fares have a greater miles traveled. You can always find an alternative, and if you prove it to Delta, they increase the allowable MPM. But the stopover you chose (AMS), was still inherently a legal SkyTeam stopover for this flight. You would not be able to connect through Rome for example, even if you were hypothetically within the MPM.
There appear to be two general rules that must be met when booking stopovers:
1) Total trip must be within MPM limit (or +5% or whatever. Delta does not seem to be overly anal about this).
2) Stopovers cannot occur in most cities. Can definitely occur in cities that are part of published fare between origin and destination. May be possible in other cities but depends on what agent says.
Here is a simple example: You can't go NYC - Moscow - Athens on SkyTeam with a stopover in Moscow, at least not on one single award booking. This is because Moscow is not a valid stopover between NYC and Athens as it is not part of a published fare. I guess a rebellious ticketing agent might allow it, but it should not be expected. Let's also assume for the sake of the example that this trip is within MPM limits.
The reason the Scandinavian flight you mention was allowed was because AMS is a legal stopover between NYC and some Scandinavian city. The MPM issue is quirky and can be circumvented because other published fares have a greater miles traveled. You can always find an alternative, and if you prove it to Delta, they increase the allowable MPM. But the stopover you chose (AMS), was still inherently a legal SkyTeam stopover for this flight. You would not be able to connect through Rome for example, even if you were hypothetically within the MPM.
Jul 23, 2011, 9:44 am
#37
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I would be inclined to disagree, actually, for the simple reason that DL's routing rules for international travel are almost exclusively based on MPM. Find me a DL fare (not a KL fare) for US-EU that lists the routing other than MPM and ticketed point deductions. That makes it impossible to determine what falls within a published fare. If DL.dumb supported more partners, it might be possible to test this theory out, but with just DL, AF, KL, AS, and HA, I'm not sure I can come up with a good example. The one I'd like to try is
BOS-DL/AF-CDG-AF/KL-AMS-KL-OSL-OK-PRG-OK-ZAG
to address yesterday's example. EF reports:
Results from ExpertFlyer.com
Note that this cuts out your proposed backtracking through AMS, which I think was what was causing the system to have fits. Using the TPDs, that should be a valid routing, allowing a stopover in OSL.
BOS-DL/AF-CDG-AF/KL-AMS-KL-OSL-OK-PRG-OK-ZAG
to address yesterday's example. EF reports:
Results from ExpertFlyer.com
Code:
Maximum Permitted Mileage:
Airports: BOS-CDG-AMS-OSL-PRG-ZAG
Flying DL on 09/01/11
Maximum Permitted Mileage
BOSZAG-DL 01SEP11
TICKETED POINT SURCHARGES APPLY.
GI M 5M 10M 15M 20M 25M
MPM AT 4929 5175 5421 5668 5914 6161
Calculated Sector Mileage
BOS DL PAR DL AMS DL OSL DL PRG DL ZAG /01SEP11
*************************************************************
CTY GI TPM CUM MPM EMS DED LAST NEXT 25M
BOS 1
1. PAR 2 AT 3444 3444 4132 0M 0 0 688 5165
2. AMS 2 AT 247 3691 4138 0M 0 0 447 5172
3. OSL 2 AT 597 3688* 4219 0M 600 0 531 5273
4. PRG 2 AT 710 4398* 4664 0M 600 0 266 5830
5. ZAG 2 AT 313 4711* 4929 0M 600 0 218 6161
* TICKETED POINT DEDUCTION APPLIED
Jul 23, 2011, 10:18 am
#39
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Sorry for opening up that can of worms, but I am incredibly curious if it would work. I'd love for a bored PM/DM with an EF subscription to see if that routing could be made to work.
Jul 23, 2011, 10:26 am
#40
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well done, mtkeller. ^
Jul 23, 2011, 11:38 am
#41
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NYC-SU-MOW-SU-ATH is a valid routing. Interestingly, it exceeds the MPM that DL and SU list for NYC-ATH, according to EF. Would be interesting to see if that could be gotten with DL miles, since the routing is valid for the ST member operating the flights but over DL's MPM. (Although it's within 5%, so it might be in that wiggle room some have had success with.)
Jul 23, 2011, 11:51 am
#43
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STOPOVER - more than 24 hour stop.
LAYOVER - less than 24 hour stop, as scheduled explicitly by the traveler. Counts toward MPM.
CONNECTION - less than 24 hour stop (although potentially in rare cases more) as scheduled by the airline between two points. Different from LAYOVER because it does not count in the MPM, at least for many airlines. Not sure about Delta.
LAYOVER - less than 24 hour stop, as scheduled explicitly by the traveler. Counts toward MPM.
CONNECTION - less than 24 hour stop (although potentially in rare cases more) as scheduled by the airline between two points. Different from LAYOVER because it does not count in the MPM, at least for many airlines. Not sure about Delta.
No difference between layovers and stopovers, at least as far as routing is concerned. The only difference is the duration, with layovers being <24h for int'l and stopovers being >= 24h.
I'm also not aware of any airline that doesn't count connections in MPM. Otherwise, what would the point of MPM? In every case I'm aware of, MPM replaces specific routing rules.
I'm also not aware of any airline that doesn't count connections in MPM. Otherwise, what would the point of MPM? In every case I'm aware of, MPM replaces specific routing rules.
Connections "scheduled by the airline" concept only applies to the Routing principle (in which case the MPM does not apply).
- http://Help.KVSTool.com/#MPM
- http://Help.KVSTool.com/#TPM
- http://Help.KVSTool.com/#Q44
- http://Help.KVSTool.com/#Routing_Rules
It does.
Jul 23, 2011, 11:54 am
#44
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[KVS Availability Tool 6.3.0.R1/Diamond - Routing Rules: NYC-ATH/SU/LHPX/650 USD]
Code:
NYCATH-SU 23JUL11 *RULE DISPLAY* TARIFF 0001 RULE RE01 * ADD APPLICABLE TAX * FED INSP FEES * -FARE BASIS USD NUC PTC FT GI LHPX R 650.00 650.00 ADT EX AT LHPX/CH25 R 488.00 487.50 CNN EX AT LHPX/CH25 R 488.00 487.50 INS EX AT LHPX/IN90 R 65.00 65.00 INF EX AT LHPX R 650.00 650.00 UNN EX AT BOOKING CODES L PFCS MAY VARY BY RTG INDUSTRY FARE TYPE - XPX - INSTANT PURCHASE FARE MPM - AT 5922 VIA NORTH ATLANTIC --------------------------------------------------------------- ROUTING 15 FROM-TO NYC-MOW-ATH*
Jul 23, 2011, 12:11 pm
#45
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