edscholl

which would, of course, help w/ the complaints about lack of upgrades for those who do go dm. if there are tons of PMs holding back, that there is incentive by itself for those who fly elite heavy routes (like the og poster).

5khours

Fly UA

5khours

Now flying mostly UA. Flew 150k BIS on NWA for 20 years in a row as a happy and very loyal customer before that. PM (PE) got me upgrades to F on nearly every domestic flight. Was happy just to get the extra miles for going over the 75k for PE status since I could almost always use these for upgrades to C in TPAC. Once NWA made it nearly impossible to get UGs on TPAC, it all became irrelevant.

There are different types of flyers, and different aspects of the programs appeal to different types of flyers, but IMHO DL has a crappy hard product on TPAC and there is nothing in their FF program that is appealing to TPAC FFs be they full fare biz pax or discount economy pax.

It's a shame. NW used to have by far and away the best hard product and the best FF program across the lake, but DL is totally out of the running these days, and DM and rollovers have done zip to make them better.

MSPeconomist

I'm a bit surprised by some of your comments. I've been flying NW TPAC for nineteen years and I'm generally happy with it, although for me, going through immigrations and customs at MSP (most of the time) is a big advantage. I've never done TPAC in cattle class, however, so I only know how others evaluate the coach product.

In the beginning, I sometimes got upgraded from C to F and greatly enjoyed the ceremony of the kimono-clad flight attendant and the special meal service in TPAC F even on an American carrier. The F seats were fine, the C seats were OK, and in the years between the elimination of F and the installation of the new slanted lie-flat seats, I loved to be in the 747-400 front downstairs section with the old F seats. In fact, 5E and 5F reclined way back and became flat--my favorite aircraft seats ever.

I miss the nonstops from the US to the old Hong Kong airport and to the old and new airports at Osaka. These old airports, as well as the old Terminal 1 at NRT, were pretty bad and crowded, as were their WCs. However, the remodeling of the NRT terminal, including the WC and old WBC lounge, made me more than willing to accept the concept of the NRT hub for connections to the rest of Asia. It's still very convenient and efficient, although I wish NRT would permit elite security lines and I'm aware that the NRT connection schedule causes less than ideal arrival and departure times in certain Asian airports like SIN and PVG.

I never had trouble getting upgraded to business class at the time of ticket purchase, although sometimes the upgrade prevented me from taking the nonstop to NRT. However, I DO mind the elimination of upgrades with more miles from some of the cheaper fares. Is this what you mean by it becoming nearly impossible to get upgrades?

In terms of the hard product, I've never experienced TPAC in coach, but I've been told by many frequent travelers that Y on a NW 330 is as good as it gets with (relatively) comfortable seats and great IFE systems.

In WBC/BE, I initially hated the KLM-style slanted lie-flat seats, but they've gotten softer and I've gotten used to them, although they seem a bit narrow despite the aisles also seeming narrow. IFE isn't high priority for me, but I was happy until the Delta merger seemed to cause the variety and attractiveness of movie selections to decline dramatically. Some of the DL TPAC aircraft have the new lie-flat seats in a suite-like herringbone arrangement, but I haven't been on one yet. However, I have experienced some of Delta's old ratty dirty wide-body aircraft (for instance, 767) on TATL routes.

The bottom line is that i currently have no major complaints regarding the hard product TPAC business class. I like NRT for connections and the two new WCs there are wonderful. However, as a hub-captive, I've had little opportunity to sample the competition. In terms of FF program changes, of course most of us are unhappy. Finally, my overall impression is that unfortunately DL doesn't realize the value of NW's Asian routes and customers or understand how to maintain and nurture this advantage.

avidflyer

This is spot on. I am a DM and did not hold back because I fly a ton...it does not matter for me. That said, the statements made up thread were something to the effect that "I just do not believe that many Plats would hold short" or that "the new roll-over program is not driving any different behaviour than last years program without DM or Roll-over". That is just not true and all I was trying to point out is that it most certainly is having an impact. If you fly primarily elite heavy routes AND you plan to fly 125k next year (not maybe but positive)then crossing to DM this year is a good move. If you are NOT sure you will fly 125k next year then you would be cray to take DM for just one year when rolling your MQM's to 2010 and making DM (with the added 50k head start) by say June would give you DM status for almost twice as long (Next year as well as 2011 for the SAME MQM'). There is no rolling the dice...you will start January off with 0 MQM's and DM for 2010 if you take DM now or you can start January off with Plat in the bank AND 50,000 MQM's towards 2010 and 2011 DM status. Same MQM's but double the time as a Diamond.

GrizShel

Rollover is the only case I can think of where Delta truly did exceed my expectations for Elite benefits in the transition to the brave new Deltified NW world.

Beckles

This still does not answer the question. Again, you said:There has always been a good argument to be made to having status on more than one airline if you can exceed the top tier for your main airline, but you said that rollover "is also making some people, once they reach DM, fly other airlines." Please explain how rollover makes this more likely? That makes absolutely zero sense to me, those who could exceed 75k or 125k may well see benefit in obtaining status on another airline if they fly much over that, but I don't see any reasonable argument how rollover encourages that, it clearly discourages that in my mind since it now provides further benefit (beyond threshold bonuses) to accumulating additional MQM above the tier threshold.

avidflyer

Because you can now "lock up" 2 years of DM at once. So if you are like me and have made it to 250k Mqm for the 2009 year I now have DM for 2010 AND 2011 so I have 2 full years to try other airlines (assuming they continue roll-over next year). Furthermore, I do not have to fly a single DL flight next year so I can get 1k or EXP and still have my DM benefits for 2011. That is MUCH different than in the past where you still had to come back to DL the following year to re-qualify.

Beckles

Okay, that makes some sense for the ultra-high mileage flyers, but then if they wanted status on another airline, they could have already done that this year, especially since many other airlines have been much more generous with bonus EQM than Delta, waiting until next year doesn't really have a benefit over having done it this year.

I believe for a vast majority of elite frequent flyers, programs are not interchangeable. Delta PM's/DM's in ATL, MSP, DTW, or SLC aren't going to think maybe AA or UA are better because in comparison the schedules are terrible to 95%+ of destinations. This applies to a lesser extent in dozens of cities where DL is the largest carrier with the most service.

Are you planning on going for top tier in another airline next year since you don't need to fly DL for status?

hfly

Ro;;over is a brilliant move, it will in fact keep many bporderline Plats, who maintain status with another airline flying Delta more past the 75k level, not everyone shares the idea that it is best to hold up just short of a level and I doubt that less than 500 people on Earth will do this.

Personally, and one can go back and check out my posts on this from the last 4-5 years, I fly a lot on a lot of airlines and generally sometime around the middle of Q3 I have generally hit or almost hit top tier on 4 carriers. I then become an airline or alliances worst nightmare, a premium traveller who has his "status secured" on multiple carriers and then am easily influenced by the things that the airlines do NOT want you to be influenced by at that point, fares, routings and special FF perks. Once my status is secured, I no longer will consider the slightest roundabout routing, I will not spend even an extra $ to fly one carrier over another, and I look to see who will throw me an extra perk - which was one of my greatest criticisms of Delta's late announced threshold awards in recent years. The question becomes, who has the extra double mile promo, the threshold promo or even the rollover promo. I have in the past flown or at least credited massive excessive mileage in a year to AF/KL simply because if I was going to fly that much I might as well throw it into some rollover benefit (AF/KL is a crappy rollover, but I was flying so much that I still stuck some huge chinks in there). It also helps Delta mitigate the high flier who is grounded or slowed down for a year due to whatever reason, illness, work problems, family reasons, as someone who flew 250k in a year would not have to appeal the next year iof they flew only 25k as the rollover would already take care of it. Personally I wish they had it the last decade as this has been/will be a weak year that won;t take me much past 125k.

delter

I hope that they're not overweight, because I would prefer that there were as many PPP (pax per ton) as possible who decide to use the DDD (err, Delta-Diamond-Disincentive). I'll end the year at over 250k eqm so my Diamond status is assured for 2 years.

But I think that this roll-over thing has an air of New-Coke about it.
It's just going to lose money for the company and push business to competitors

hfly

Beckles, with the takoeover of NW and Delta consolidating and increasing its position on the two coasts in perhaps the two largest airports (x 2 in NY + LA) in the ENTIRE WORLD not dominated by one hub carrier, this sort of thing is vital, to wooing customers.

DeltaFirst

That's exactly where I'm at as well. Now since CO provided a status match I'll fly them as much as I can but the bottom line is still who will provide the best service and who has the most convenient schedule. I have to admit I didn't mind the last TATL on a CO 757 in Y, the President's Club in Newark wasn't too bad either. Bottom line is it weren't for rollover I wouldn't have ventured out to accumulate miles on another airline and with CO leaving Skyteam I guess the stars were in perfect alignment. That said, I'll still be flying Delta or some ST partner a lot in 2010 because their routes work best for me. For those that fly mostly international, rollover is a good deal.

stewabr

I agree with everything you said except for one thing (international travel due to quality) and that is why I am considering CO for at least enough to maintain Platinum status next year. I'll hit DM for 2011 in late Jan/early Feb and therefore I have time to try something else. I'm pretty loyal to DL but honestly this gives me a chance to see if the grass really is greener and I'm going to take it. I go to SE Asia about 6 times/year though and I honestly just can't do DL any longer on those trips. There's just no way to justify to myself or my clients. The price is very high compared to MH for example and the quality is nowhere close. In limited trips on CO I have to say that it is also a far better product.

hfly

You know, I have been hearing certain people go on about CO's superior Biz service for awhile now, so I made sure that I flew them twice in the last year on very long haul flights. At the best I can say that they were equal in almost every way to Delta, at worst I can say that they were slightly worse. This isn;t Cathay and Dl that we're comparing here, they are similar products and Delta often seems to have slightly better crew.