JFK-HNL a possibility for DL?
Nov 24, 2009, 8:12 pm
#1
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JFK-HNL a possibility for DL?
With the announcement of SAN-HNL I realized that HNL is quite a mini-hub for DL. Does anyone think DL will start flying JFK-HNL in the future? I think it would be a great way to a) connect European travelers to Hawaii and b) Slap CO in the face.
Anyway.. would be interested to hear people's thoughts.
Anyway.. would be interested to hear people's thoughts.
Nov 24, 2009, 8:20 pm
#2
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With the announcement of SAN-HNL I realized that HNL is quite a mini-hub for DL. Does anyone think DL will start flying JFK-HNL in the future? I think it would be a great way to a) connect European travelers to Hawaii and b) Slap CO in the face.
Anyway.. would be interested to hear people's thoughts.
Anyway.. would be interested to hear people's thoughts.
Nov 24, 2009, 8:32 pm
#3
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Exactly. It's a question of marginal profit. It is a low yield market. I think DL has too few 777s right now in any case.
Nov 24, 2009, 8:32 pm
#4
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HNL is a leisure market... part of the reason DL flies domestically equipped planes there versus international birds. The A330 MSP/ATL-HNL being the exception because no domestically equipped planes can handle that route anymore.
Nov 24, 2009, 8:48 pm
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Nov 24, 2009, 9:19 pm
#6
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Unless this DTW-HNL flight is something new I've never seen before... there's only ATL/MSP/SLC (and random west coast - HNL) flights. No DTW-HNL.
Nov 24, 2009, 9:24 pm
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Nov 24, 2009, 11:34 pm
#9
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FWIW, there used to be a DTW-HNL flight seasonally during the winters (the DC-10 era) but that stopped a few years back. Was on that flight a few times. Great for bypassing MSP, but must've been pretty bad for NW, since the route required extra crew.
Nov 25, 2009, 12:57 am
#10
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With the announcement of SAN-HNL I realized that HNL is quite a mini-hub for DL. Does anyone think DL will start flying JFK-HNL in the future? I think it would be a great way to a) connect European travelers to Hawaii and b) Slap CO in the face.
Anyway.. would be interested to hear people's thoughts.
Anyway.. would be interested to hear people's thoughts.
1) The reason why a lot of the West Coast-HI flying works is because the flights maximize aircraft utilization by flying at night. Like SAN-HNL, many of those flights leave the West Coast around 5 or 6PM and turn around in Hawaii as red-eye flights. The planes likely would otherwise just be sitting around at West Coast airports overnight or until the red-eyes back to the East Coast - very few flights leave the West Coast for places back east after 3PM or so West Coast time, since they'd get into those cities very late at night or in the wee hours of the AM. By sending planes on to Hawaii, DL maximizes revenue from those assets.
In contrast, a non-stop flight from JFK would tie up a widebody for the whole day - and since HI is a relatively low-yield place to send a widebody aircraft, that plane could likely be better utilized flying internationally.
2) I'm not convinced that there is a huge market connecting Europe to Hawaii. But even if there were, DL faces a timing issue: In order for a flight to gather connections from all European destinations, it would have to leave JFK around 5PM. But, by my math, a flight leaving JFK around 5PM would arrive in HNL around 11PM in the late fall and winter - well after the last flights connecting flights to the neighbor islands. That would mean JFK-HNL passengers would have to overnight in HNL - limiting the flight's usefulness for those who'd rather vacation on the neighbor islands. In order to connect to the last batch of inter-island flights, JFK-HNL would have to leave before 2PM this time of year, making connections from all but a handful of European destinations (LHR, CDG, a few others) impossible. And given that the early arriving European flights themselves are ill-timed for inter-Europe connections, the Europe-Hawaii market (to the extent it does exist) wouldn't be all that well-served.
The Europe-Hawaii market is probably better served by routing passengers through LAX, via CDG or AMS, where DL serves more of Hawaii with more frequency. It's actually shorter to fly from Europe to Hawaii via the West Coast than via JFK (especially via SEA).
3) CO's EWR-HNL service is better than DL's ATL or MSP-HNL service, especially up front. If DL wanted to "slap CO in the face" with JFK-HNL, it would have to improve its current Hawaiian offerings to capture whatever premium traffic there is from NY to Hawaii.
Nov 25, 2009, 1:36 am
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Nov 25, 2009, 1:55 am
#13
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Hmmm, so that means that you are in agreement with me that Delta does in fact have 763ER's in domestic config that could fly this route as opposed to WBuchams claim that there were none. As we are talking about one route, or possibly 2 if one were speaking about JFK and DTW, then 4 frames is about twice what they would need. Thank You for agreeing with me.
Nov 25, 2009, 2:57 am
#14
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I agree with longtime lurker. Besides, the longer the flight, the more fuel it requires (and more fuel to lift that fuel), which makes it more expensive to operate. There are also crew considerations, etc.
Nov 25, 2009, 5:29 am
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Probably not, for a number of reasons:
1) The reason why a lot of the West Coast-HI flying works is because the flights maximize aircraft utilization by flying at night. Like SAN-HNL, many of those flights leave the West Coast around 5 or 6PM and turn around in Hawaii as red-eye flights. The planes likely would otherwise just be sitting around at West Coast airports overnight or until the red-eyes back to the East Coast - very few flights leave the West Coast for places back east after 3PM or so West Coast time, since they'd get into those cities very late at night or in the wee hours of the AM. By sending planes on to Hawaii, DL maximizes revenue from those assets.
In contrast, a non-stop flight from JFK would tie up a widebody for the whole day - and since HI is a relatively low-yield place to send a widebody aircraft, that plane could likely be better utilized flying internationally.
2) I'm not convinced that there is a huge market connecting Europe to Hawaii. But even if there were, DL faces a timing issue: In order for a flight to gather connections from all European destinations, it would have to leave JFK around 5PM. But, by my math, a flight leaving JFK around 5PM would arrive in HNL around 11PM in the late fall and winter - well after the last flights connecting flights to the neighbor islands. That would mean JFK-HNL passengers would have to overnight in HNL - limiting the flight's usefulness for those who'd rather vacation on the neighbor islands. In order to connect to the last batch of inter-island flights, JFK-HNL would have to leave before 2PM this time of year, making connections from all but a handful of European destinations (LHR, CDG, a few others) impossible. And given that the early arriving European flights themselves are ill-timed for inter-Europe connections, the Europe-Hawaii market (to the extent it does exist) wouldn't be all that well-served.
The Europe-Hawaii market is probably better served by routing passengers through LAX, via CDG or AMS, where DL serves more of Hawaii with more frequency. It's actually shorter to fly from Europe to Hawaii via the West Coast than via JFK (especially via SEA).
3) CO's EWR-HNL service is better than DL's ATL or MSP-HNL service, especially up front. If DL wanted to "slap CO in the face" with JFK-HNL, it would have to improve its current Hawaiian offerings to capture whatever premium traffic there is from NY to Hawaii.
1) The reason why a lot of the West Coast-HI flying works is because the flights maximize aircraft utilization by flying at night. Like SAN-HNL, many of those flights leave the West Coast around 5 or 6PM and turn around in Hawaii as red-eye flights. The planes likely would otherwise just be sitting around at West Coast airports overnight or until the red-eyes back to the East Coast - very few flights leave the West Coast for places back east after 3PM or so West Coast time, since they'd get into those cities very late at night or in the wee hours of the AM. By sending planes on to Hawaii, DL maximizes revenue from those assets.
In contrast, a non-stop flight from JFK would tie up a widebody for the whole day - and since HI is a relatively low-yield place to send a widebody aircraft, that plane could likely be better utilized flying internationally.
2) I'm not convinced that there is a huge market connecting Europe to Hawaii. But even if there were, DL faces a timing issue: In order for a flight to gather connections from all European destinations, it would have to leave JFK around 5PM. But, by my math, a flight leaving JFK around 5PM would arrive in HNL around 11PM in the late fall and winter - well after the last flights connecting flights to the neighbor islands. That would mean JFK-HNL passengers would have to overnight in HNL - limiting the flight's usefulness for those who'd rather vacation on the neighbor islands. In order to connect to the last batch of inter-island flights, JFK-HNL would have to leave before 2PM this time of year, making connections from all but a handful of European destinations (LHR, CDG, a few others) impossible. And given that the early arriving European flights themselves are ill-timed for inter-Europe connections, the Europe-Hawaii market (to the extent it does exist) wouldn't be all that well-served.
The Europe-Hawaii market is probably better served by routing passengers through LAX, via CDG or AMS, where DL serves more of Hawaii with more frequency. It's actually shorter to fly from Europe to Hawaii via the West Coast than via JFK (especially via SEA).
3) CO's EWR-HNL service is better than DL's ATL or MSP-HNL service, especially up front. If DL wanted to "slap CO in the face" with JFK-HNL, it would have to improve its current Hawaiian offerings to capture whatever premium traffic there is from NY to Hawaii.