I just ran into something that smells & looks just a little bit fishy.

I pay my bill using Billpay electronically. I realized (to my horror) that I hadn't immediately scheduled my First USA United bill to be paid as soon as I received it, and it was due on Sunday, 8/3. Luckily, I remembered on 7/31 & sent the payment that day.

Billpay sends the payments electronically to First USA. Under normal conditions the payment is posted to my account 2 days after I send it. For example, if I send it on Wed (transacations happen after 4pm) it will post to my account on Friday. I verified this between Billpay & my FUSA account for a few months.

Well, 7/31 was a Thursday and yesterday I didn't see my payment posting so I called. I asked why my due date was on a Sunday when payments aren't processed on the weekend. They said that they process 7 days a week. I then asked why my electronic payment wasn't posted yet since it was in their account since Thursday night. They replied that it would probably post Monday when the system updated.

Surprise of all surprises - it posted on Monday and is visible to me today with an 8/4 posting date.. Techincally, 1 days late. The CS rep said that they give a one day grace period.

My questions - Wasn't FUSA sued for having due dates on the weekends when payments aren't processed and also for not processing payments received after 9am on the due date?

This issue really is bugging me because they had my money for 4 days before posting it to my account.

I very rarely use the card anymore because of this issue, and will most likely start looking for another Visa because of this. Unfortunately, it is now our primary means of getting United miles since I'm not flying as often.

Suggestions?

Mary

Mary2e:
I would not get too "exited" about that. I guess that you use an online-bill-paying service at your bank. Actually we don't know how long FirstUSA had your money. If and when they don't charge you a fee, you should be (and feel) O.K.
I pay my bills on FirstUSA's website. There you have a 5 day window; on 8/5 you can pay until 8/10. Meaning that I go early on-line and make a payment due 1, 2 days before payment due date.

They probably had my money for at least 4 days before crediting my account.

How can I be so sure? If it takes 2 days during the week on a consistent basis how could it take 4 when a weekend is included?

So pay on Wed, account credit on Friday. Pay on Thurs, account SHOULD BE credited on Saturday. IF they process payments on the weekend as they claim to. It should be on Sunday on the outside chance that they don't get as much done on the weekend.

This credit came through at midnight on Monday...

That leads me to believe that they don't process payments on the weekend as they claim to.

Also, my preference is to use my bank bill pay. I don't like to authorize anyone to take money from my account for any reason.

Thanks for your note!

Mary

Well, maybe FirstUSA does process on weekends but only if you use their Bill Pay. I don't have any experience with that in particular but I was always satisfied with FirstUSA's bill pay. Quick, convenient.

On the other hand, Banks make tons of money with the "electronic bill pay" they offer to their customers (besides charging them fee for that). Banks take money out of your account immediately but credit to payye's accounts days later.

I don't disagree with that statement. I don't think it's the case in my situation. My payments leave my account after 4pm on business day 1 and are posted to my account on business day 3. I think that's pretty fair.

What I don't think is fair is not processing electronic payments on the weekend.

Mary

I use a bill pay service that uses EFT directly from my bank account to First USA (money is NOT deducted in advance and sent indirectly .. it is paid directly via EFT). Even in my case, it takes several days from the date of the transfer for the money to post to my FUSA account, so I always make sure my payment is posted at least 4 - 5 days prior to the due date. It should be posted on the day they receive your payment. My SPG AMEX card payments are handled the same way, and Amex almost always posts the payments on the day the funds were transferred.

If you are close to the due date, you are better off doing the EFT from the FUSA web site. IIRC, if you do the payment prior to some cutoff time, they will post it as a same day payment. If you need to rely on this, you might want to check out the web site to see if this still true or not. (Don't take my word for it.)

Mary, I agree with you, I think they risk some exposure over this issue. It's not right. I don't mind if it takes them several days to post it, but for EFT payments, the transaction date should be posted as the same day the funds hit the account, similar to the way they post purchase/cash adv. transactions .. the transaction date and posting date are generally not the same, but you pay interest from the transaction date, not the posting date, if interest applies. For those that carry a balance, it makes a difference in how much interest they pay.

-David



[This message has been edited by LIH Prem (edited 08-09-2003).]

Yes, you are right. I never recognized that:
"For those that carry a balance, it makes a difference in how much interest they pay"
I think FirstUSA/Bank1One should change this.
Money transfers can be very fast: Last week I received a SWIFT Wire-Transfer from Deutsche Bank in Germany to SunTrust, Atlanta in less than 2 hours...!!

Mary,

As for suggestions, have you looked at a cash-back card? You can then buy your ticket (without capacity controls.)

As to your Bill Pay experience, read the diclosure by your Bank or Bill Payment service. Many of them guarantee the payment will be made by when they say. If not, they contact the receiver and work it out... including late fees. I had some problems early on with my local phone service, and my BP service worked it out.

Actually, the *reputable* institutions pull the money overnight on day-1 and mail the check/transmit the funds on day-2. Some will even pay the bill *before* they pull the $$ from your account. Also, not all banks charge for bill pay services.

------------------
Bob

Mary, same here - credit card issuers, all of them or most do schedule the due date during the weekends, and they do not process payments on weekends (or legal holidays). It is a sham, and if they not sued for that yet, they'd be some day.
Given that, we're better off knowing their rules and playing by them. The late fee of $29/$35 are the major profit center for all the banks, and the float for an extra day for you is most likely zero these days. I don't advocate paying bills earlier, nor I ever use the "autopay" feature, it just makes sense to follow their rules.
If you insist on "pushing" funds from our bank to payees, you favorite bank will not stand by you unless you sent the payment 5 days in advance, though mostly payments get there sooner then that.
When you "pull" money by using credit card issuer's payment system, you always guaranteed the posting date, I quote from First Usa:
"It will take up to 3 business days for your payment to post to your account. Please make sure the date you enter for the payment is at least 3 business days before your payment due date."
True, that's the longest delay among the majors - but it is reliable. For instance, Amex posts the payment on the same day you schedule it - and pull them from the checking two-three days later.

Update - I received my bill this week. The electronic payment that was sent to their account on Thursday 7/31 was posted to my account on Monday 8/4. My payment was due on 8/3, and as they said on the phone, I would get a one day grace period if I was "late."

It is a sham. The payment post date should have been no later than Sat 8/2.

One day, they will get sued....

Mary

Mary-

Doesn't BillPay guarantee that your payment will be made on the date you select for payment? I think they do, and if so, they would be able to prove that your payment was made to FirstUSA on July 31.

With that proof in hand, you could go to FirstUSA and show it took them from 7/31 until 8/4 to record a payment they had already received.

There are two potential problems with my suggestion:

1. I think FirstUSA puts in their cardholder agreement warnings that payments may not be posted for XX days, and that weekends could take longer. You need to see how these disclosed delays play against your facts (eg. Sat, Sun, full moon, etc).

2. I'm not sure BillPay will chase down proof of payment unless you incurred a cost. Maybe yes, maybe no, I'm just not sure.

I've been using Fidelity BillPay, which asks for 5 days advance notice to insure payment.

My Citibank Hilton Visa statement arrived by snail mail 10 days in advance of the due date, which doesn't give much leeway if I'd not been in town.

I do pay attention to what bills might come due but not when I am away for less than a week.

I'd certainly like to return to the days of all bills due on the 1st, and 30 days notice!

Sylvia

Yes, Billpay does guarantee that the payment will be made on the date selected & it is. However, their guarantee applies only if the date I make the payment is 5 business days before the due date. This may be because some payments are made by check.

The FirstUSA payments are done electronically, and while the agreement may say it can take a few days to credit the payment, the funds were delivered to their account on a specified date, and the date of my payment should show as such.

I'm not a lawyer, but if I remember my business law classes correctly, they have constructive (if not actual) receipt of the funds and I have fulfilled my part of the agreement.

They are just playing some more of the usual games that they are well known (and already have been sued) for.

I think it's just a matter of time before some attorney gets fed up & files suit.

Thanks for all your opinions & advise!

Mary

[This message has been edited by Mary2e (edited 08-24-2003).]

Well, that depends on what the meaning of "date" is.

Both banks and credit card companies are famous for redefining the word date by fine print such as "payments arriving after we get up in the morning will be counted as arriving on the NEXT business day". When everyone plays games with redefining what the meaning of a date is relative to what time of day things happen, and your sending bank and your credit don't agree on this redefinition, it's easy to get dates be by a day off despite all their "assurances". (That, as I understand, is the real nature of the "grace period"; that First USA was forced to count payments received by the WEE HOURS of the next day as being the previous day, because their cutoff was too early in the day to be useful without that grace period. But that still means the grace period is not a full day!)

I have to agree with you Mary. I've been watching my account since you posted this and it seems to post 4 days after they have received the money by ACH/EFT transfer out of my checking account, directly into their account.

At least AMEX seems to post the transaction date on the day they receive the money in their account (post date vs transaction date). In my AMEX case, the transaction date of my payments always equals the date the debit shows up in my checking account.

FUSA seems to use the float to their advantage here. They will back post credit/debit transactions to the transaction date, but will not post payment transactions on the transaction date, only on the posting date, which is arbitrary.

-David


[This message has been edited by LIH Prem (edited 08-24-2003).]