Chip and Signature failures
 

Searching this forum and others before our recent trip to Europe gave little consistent info on whether I needed to worry about getting a rare (in the USA) Chip and PIN vs a merely unusual Chip and Signature card. Rather than opening a new credit card, I had found that Citi would replace my current card with Chip and Signature.

In retrospect, I absolutely wish I had opened a new account with someone else to get a card with Chip and PIN. Here's where the Chip and Signature failed me.

--At a French tollbooth with no attendant at 11:00 pm when we had just arrived in the Eurozone a few hours earlier and just needed to get the kids to bed.

--At several gas stations on a rural mountain road in France where there were no cashiers (or where the cashiers could not take cash because it was Sunday).

--At a train station in rural Sweden where there was ONLY a machine for tickets.

These are just the highlights--the ones where my blood pressure spiked because workarounds were difficult. The card was pretty much useless in gas pumps and toll booths everywhere we went. It generally did work where we could get a human to help, but that's not always the case.

What amazes me is that cards branded by airlines and hotels--which are obviously targeting travelers--don't offer this option.

Anyway, those were instances where Chip and Signature failed me. What about others?

So far I've never had chip and signature rejected. Be a PITA, yes. All the time. But never rejected.

Chip and Signature failures
 

I was in Italy 3 weeks ago and If I didn't have my USAA chip and pin I'd still be at that toll booth in Parma. My CSP and Barclays Arrival failed me there.

Chip and Signature failures
 

I have a chip and signature card from citi. I have used the cash advance pin assigned to the card successfully at ticket machines etc all over Europe without a problem.

A lot of ticket stations I have used will fail on chip and signature (e.g., Arlanda Express/train stations in Sweden, train stations in Amsterdam), though others work fine (e.g., London Underground).

I've also had some weird behavior occasionally with credit machines where chip and signature will be declined and if I ask them to swipe the machine will require the chip to be used. I carry a non-chip no FTF card specifically to use to swipe in these situations.

I don't think OP understands that the cash advance pin is the same pin for chip and pin. And you always get a cash advance pin. And it's not counted as a cash advance.

I had same problem in Paris recently, only it worked initially then stopped for no apparent reason.



The card is rejected before any PIN option appears.

For me, it was different in different places. In one place, if I'd had my cash advance PIN, maybe it would have worked. Everywhere else, my card was declined before I had an option for a PIN.

I had off-again-on-again success with the ticket machines for the Berlin metro. On the other hand, I sometimes couldn't even get those machines to take clean Euro bills either.

No issues with either SBB or OEBB ticket machines in Switzerland and Austria two weeks ago.

Did you have a Citi Visa or MC? The Visa doesn't allow PIN the MC does.

MasterCard. Apparently we had different experiences, as most often, I wasn't even given an option to enter a PIN.

Chip and Signature failures
 

The "Fresh" market at Grand Canal in Dublin doesn't accept Chip and Sign. And ticket machines for the DART train (mistakenly) indicate you have exceeded your daily limit.

Correct. This happened on our Citi Premium card which we had successfully used the cash advance PIN just last year, at Trenitalia kiosk.

However this year the machine rejected the card even before the PIN screen showed up when we tried to use it at the kiosk at Milan.

The Chip and Signature card requires REAL TIME communication to the bank in order to process the transaction.

The system in France, Austria, Swiss, (and now you have proven in Sweden also), uses the PIN stored on the Chip itself, and is not a real time process. i.e. the transaction is not transmitted to your bank for authorization at the time you use the card, instead, the authorization seeks the PIN info on the chip which of course has none with a Chip and Signature card.

When traveling in Europe without the Chip and PIN card, you would need to pay attention to the calendar to avoid having to fill up on Weekends and holidays, as well as to have loads of Euro coins to pay toll should you need to use toll roads. In short, you would need to PLAN AHEAD to overcome such obstacles.

Last year the Citi premium card cash advance PIN worked but this year the same Trenitalia kiosk rejected the card before even gave the PIN option.

No I've never used it I just know the card allows it. It allows enciphered online PIN not plaintext offline PIN so the terminal must be continuously network connected.

So the Arrival being a Chip and PIN card still failed?

I have read that Barclays made the Chip and Signature function as default, but it would invokes the Chip and PIN function when needed. Apparently it is not the case per your experience.

I have been told by Chase that my Sapphire chip & signature card would be treated as a cash advance if I used the pin for any purpose (like train tickets).
Have you used you chip & signature card with a pin without it being a "cash advance" transaction? If so, what card and where?

Chip and Signature failures
 

I used my Citi AA executive MasterCard with PIN and the transaction was treated as a charge, not a cash advance.

I suggest reading this before attempting to use Barclays card as chip and pin

Thanks for the link.

It is still not clear to me, when using a chip terminal the first time after changing PIN, do you need to use the new PIN or as we all know now at the POS of WMT, the chip and signature card can only be processed as EMV and no swipe. However no PIN entry of any kind is needed.

With the above in mind, how does the "activation" of the Barclay's card customized PIN works at POS?

Recently used Barclays card and activated it by using Chip and signature at Schipool. Then within 10 minutes, used it as Chip and PIN at storage locker (this was on a Saturday) and it worked fine. In every place where a person was involved (cashier, waiter, ticket agent) I had to sign. This was true in Amsterdam, Prague, and Dresden. It only asked for the PIN when I was at automated kiosks - train station and such. Only time I had a minor issue was when a waiter tried to swipe the mag strip since he assumed American card. It rejected and he immediately used the Chip and it worked fine and I signed.

But last year in Barcelona, before I had Barclays and just Citi HHonors card, a lot of places asked for a PIN even when dealing with cashiers. I just asked them for signature option and it worked out.

Basically in your case
1. Set a pin online
2. Go to Wal-Mart or any other EMV chip capable location worldwide with a live CSR
3. Buy your goods and sign for transaction if prompted

Basically the way offline pin works is the pin has to actually be written on the actual chip in order for most automated kiosks overseas to accept the card.

Therefore this is just Barclays way of automating the pin write process in such a way that is completely invisible to the naked eye. After the pin has been retrieved from the server and written on the chip, the card can then be used truly just about anywhere

Just remember anytime you change the pin the same process has to be followed so that the card has a chance to go online and 're download the pin onto itself

At least that's the way I understand it after reading that post as well as keeping up with the EMV thread here on flyertalk
Hope that helps

In looking over the replies, it seems like my experience was not unique. The best post I've seen is the one that advises planning ahead for credit card failure and for unstaffed locations. My advice for folks is to get a Chip and PIN card. Period. It's not worth the stress.

My wife and I spent about a week last September, driving to Mont St. Michel in France from Brussels and return, stopping every night or two along the way. I can't remember how many tolls we paid in France along the way, but it was probably somewhere between 15 and 20. We paid all of the tolls with a Capital One MC, which does not have a chip, without any issues. We also refueled once or twice using the same card without any difficulty.

However, when we were within 10 KM or so of the BRU airport, we wanted to refuel the car before returning it to Hertz. This was a Sunday evening and nothing was open. We found an unmanned fuel pump at a Texaco convenience store, but none of our credit cards, including two with a chip would work. We then, as a last resort, tried a Visa debit card issued by a domestic (US) bank. It worked when I entered our pin, but the exchange bordered on being extortionate.

I looked into this when we returned home, and it appears that you need to have a pin to use along with a card with a chip, when you are at an unmanned POS terminal or kiosk in Europe.

All of the POS systems used by people in Europe still have swipe ability along w/ chip. But if your card has a chip, the swipe may reject (at least that was my experience) and they have to use the chip/signature.

Almost every unmanned kiosk/ticket machine I've come across has required a PIN. But some will take a chip/signature. Last year in Barcelona I was at the metro trying to buy tickets and only had chip/signature at the time. First 3 machines I tried rejected and wanted PIN. Then 4th one was slightly different and didn't want PIN, it processed fine. Train station in Barcelona didn't need a PIN either, it read chip and I got my tickets.

Same here, I was in Spain 2weeks ago , did not have any problem using my CSP with chip all over Spain ticket machines in Barcelona for example, as you say the machines we ran across all just read the chip and processed it via no CVM. Other places gave slip to sign
On a related note, I hear that CSP may be getting pin capabilities in the fall/winter

It's not even enough to get "a" Chip & PIN card for these situations in France.

There are two types of PINs for Chip cards: "offline" PINs and "online" PINs.

France requires a Chip card with an "offline" PIN (in unattended situations, at least).

Most of the rest of Europe only need a Chip card with an "online" PIN.

But most banks in the US that do offer Chip & PIN only offer "online" PIN!

So if you have gotten a Chip & PIN card in the US that was only "online", you might have still had the exact same problems in those unattended situations in France.

So it doesn't help to "simplify" discussions of technology like this, because the information that get lost when you "simplify" (to talking as if all Chip & PIN cards are equal) gets you in trouble in some situations.

Everything I have failed me at an SNCB ticket machine in Belgium. Visa/MC acceptance logos displayed. Most cards said "technical problem" except my B of A Visa which said "Transaction refused by issuing bank" but B of A says they see no record of it.

Mag stripe would be pretty bad in the Netherlands. Many shops, including Starbucks, have the slot covered. In Starbucks case it's covered with a big no sign over a stripe card and "no magnetic strip". Yay for Capital One's "they have to honour all cards" argument. Chase Sapphire Preferred works fine there as no CVM.

As I reported earlier, my USAA MC worked great for buying train tickets in Brussels this Spring. I'm pretty sure it was an SNCB machine (do they have others or different kinds? I don't know...). Of course this was the "old" USAA card that specifies offline Chip+PIN as the first CVM for purchases - what jeffjaguar likes to call a "true" C+P.

I will use this card until it gets replaced next year by an updated brain-damaged version. Cr@p!! :(

So if we go to Walmart and use the Arrival+ card after we have changed our pin, it'll be written on the chip and we should be fine? Even if Walmart doesn't ask for the pin during the transaction and rather uses the signature option since that's what it will default to?

Yes. Granted that the walmart or other store you are visiting has an operational EMV chip terminal. (for the US thus far it seems to be limited to SOME walmarts) you have to be able to use the chip for the transaction and not the Mag stripe, otherwise it won't work

Under most circumstances with live CSR you will only be asked for a signature or the transaction may just be approved without any CVM needed. Whatever the case may be it is at this time the pin information is updated on the chip (completely automatically and unnoticeable to the cardmember or store clerk)

Chip and Signature failures
 

There was a chip card option at my local Subway (the sandwich shop) the other day. In case you despise going to Walmart as much as I do... :-)

But the question is, have you used the chip terminal and does it actually work? A lot of places including CVS , target and safeway have chip capable terminals which are not fully enabled and you still have to use the Mag stripe

I must admit I noticed a subway terminal said Tap, Insert or Swipe card a couple of days ago but I paid via contactless, so didn't try the chip slot. They appear to be EMV Verifone terminals (Same ones used by lots of retailers in the UK like M&S and Waitrose) issued by First Data.

Germany

Arrived at B&B hotel after 2300. Kiosk check-in only. Both BoA Visa and Citi AA MC rejected. Had to call around and found vacancy (and 24 hour staff) at Holiday Inn instead. B&B hotel kiosk accepted Chase BA Visa during previous stay.

BTW, it's mentioned in the main EMV thread but there's a map of places in the US that have working EMV terminals (as in you'll need to use the slot if you have a chip card) at http://emvacceptedhere.com/ if you need one to activate your Arrival+ with.

I know BoA has online PIN at a lower priority than signature but they've never marketed that functionality as existing. (I think it's similar with other banks that claim "chip and signature".) The US banks and credit unions that claim they offer PIN do tend to be offline PIN, at least.

Slightly OT

I have bad news for all of you that use Chase Visa for foreign sites online purchases.

Chase has pulled out Verified by Visa program. I dont know when. Recently the CSP was rejected by SNCF site in the Verification process. It worked fine with Trenitalia earlier this year. It took me a total of 45 min and 4 transfers to finally get the transaction go thru.

I thought once a card was verified, the next time to use it it would be fine especially the card is recognized by SNCF as being registered with the account.

NO. It failed again 2 weeks later. This time I told the Chase front line rep to transfer me to Verified by Visa program liaison. Then I was told I had to call EACH time before a transaction if the merchant requires Verified by Visa - because Chase has pulled out the program. Chase on the other hand, could approve the card for 24 hours period. Unless you are doing multiple transactions within that 24 hours period, otherwise you would need to call again on your next transaction that the merchant uses Verified by Visa.

This would mean virtually ALL European countries national railway system websites would reject Chase cards as IIRC Trenitalia (worked earlier this year), Renfe, SNCF and may be DB, all use the Verified by Visa program on foreign cards. :td:

Just saw your post on here as well as on the thread that I started.. in case you haven't done so already, I started a thread on this issue...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase...nsactions.html
Mods are free to merge if a thread on this issue already exists . But it should be linked everywhere so a lot of people see it (not just those who hang out in the Chase thread for example

If I'm reading this page http://usa.visa.com/personal/securit...ed-by-visa.jsp correctly, the card user may elect to sign up any VISA card for the Verified by Visa program to add that security layer to online transaction. (I have never done so.) So, how does this square with Chase "pulling out" of the program? The VbyV page makes it sound like the user can opt in card by card...?

Interesting find
However as I am sure a lot of people here can back me up on this, I have NEVER had to manually register my card to receive this "benefit" it just comes ready to use
Edit
Where do you see a link to sign up? I think that link simply goes to a marketing page for issuers and merchants. (in some cases consumers if the bank you use gives you a choice whether to opt in or not