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moondog: Mastercard started foreign transaction (without conversion) fees around 2004-5 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2900927_2.html . Visa also did in April 2004 but rescinded it in June 2004.
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Let's face it and be realistic. Banks are always looking for ways to squeeze their customers to maximize their profits even if it means being innovative in fees. As an example, for many years New York State law prohibited banks from charging annual fees for credit cards. So Citibank came up with a novel interpretation. They couldn't charge an annual fee so they charged you the minimum finance charge (which was 50¢ at the time) on every statement that had a balance. (This was rendered moot when the US Supreme Court ruled the laws of the state where the credit card operation was situated governed all fees and interest rates instead of banks having different fee structures and interest rates for customers in various states. So states such as South Dakota and Delaware made sure they had laws allowing annual fees and citibank moved its credit card operations for a while to South Dakota). The foreign transaction fee, indeed all fees regarding foreign purchases whether applied to the foreign currency conversion or any foreign transaction are simply ways to make money as foreign currency conversions are done by the network and foreign transaction fee are just plain greed. And of course the definition of a foreign transaction fee is another asinine interpretation. By British Airways tickets from a travel agency or indeed on the British Airways USA web site is a transaction that never leaves the USA (assuming your credit card is from the USA and denominated in US dollars) and charges a ftf. You get charged the fee as British Airways processes its credit card sales through a bank in Britain. Many consumers discover that the hard way when they buy 3 round trips using one of the Citi or Chase cards with the ftf of $800 each and see on their credit card statement a ftf of $72 and they blame the airline (or their travel agent if bought through a travel agency such as Orbitz or the like). Most of us here know the perils of using credit cards with ftf's for foreign airline tickets but a family making its first trip overseas probably doesn't.
Then of course, the lies by merchants trying to get you to agree to be a scamee of dcc. One of the liesis well you lock in the rate as the rate could change in the next couple of days (presuming the rate would become worse for the customers; of course it could also get better). And I've stood in the mall at Blarney Castle listening to the clerks pushing dcc on their unsuspecting customers urging them it is better to lock in the rate or tell them about fees that don't exist if they agree to dcc or tell them what a gret rate they're being given (which they compare to the posted bank rate for cash which of course is much much worse than the rate used by mc/visa. And sucker after sucker is taken in by it. Many years ago when I first ran into this garbage, another of the lies used when I refused to go along with the scam i.e. the clerk rang up the sales in USD without asking me was that the amount shown in USD was there as a courtesy that indeed I was being billed in punts (pre Euro). When I pointed out the statement on the salws slip (that I was offered the choice of paying in local currency and the converson rate is final), they switched tactics and told me they had no control over it that the terminal did it automatically and that sorry but it's too late (of course every terminal has to have provision for voiding a transaction; after all sometimes accidentally on purpose the wrong amount can be entered). Invariably this led to a disagreement, with calling over the manager who sometimes tried the same lies but more usually knew exactly how to void the transaction. At least in Ireland, there is no language problem (as I've yet to run into a prson in Ireland who doesn't speak English even though Gaelic might be the preferred language). But that problem is somewhat more apparent when they pull this garbage in Spain (France I can handle as I speak enough French). However, if you ever read some of the literature, you will see how they consider dcc to be a service to the customers who now knows exactly how much something costs in a currency they understand. And how wonderful it is for somebody on an expense account n submitting his or her diary for reimbursment. And finally it is now dcc that's scamming the populace. It's a serve and it's the greedy banks who now charge the 3% ftf that are the scammers. |
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR
(Post 22735188)
Let's face it and be realistic. Banks are always looking for ways to squeeze their customers to maximize their profits even if it means being innovative in fees. As an example, for many years New York State law prohibited banks from charging annual fees for credit cards. So Citibank came up with a novel interpretation. They couldn't charge an annual fee so they charged you the minimum finance charge (which was 50¢ at the time) on every statement that had a balance. (This was rendered moot when the US Supreme Court ruled the laws of the state where the credit card operation was situated governed all fees and interest rates instead of banks having different fee structures and interest rates for customers in various states. So states such as South Dakota and Delaware made sure they had laws allowing annual fees and citibank moved its credit card operations for a while to South Dakota). The foreign transaction fee, indeed all fees regarding foreign purchases whether applied to the foreign currency conversion or any foreign transaction are simply ways to make money as foreign currency conversions are done by the network and foreign transaction fee are just plain greed. And of course the definition of a foreign transaction fee is another asinine interpretation. By British Airways tickets from a travel agency or indeed on the British Airways USA web site is a transaction that never leaves the USA (assuming your credit card is from the USA and denominated in US dollars) and charges a ftf. You get charged the fee as British Airways processes its credit card sales through a bank in Britain. Many consumers discover that the hard way when they buy 3 round trips using one of the Citi or Chase cards with the ftf of $800 each and see on their credit card statement a ftf of $72 and they blame the airline (or their travel agent if bought through a travel agency such as Orbitz or the like). Most of us here know the perils of using credit cards with ftf's for foreign airline tickets but a family making its first trip overseas probably doesn't.
Then of course, the lies by merchants trying to get you to agree to be a scamee of dcc. One of the liesis well you lock in the rate as the rate could change in the next couple of days (presuming the rate would become worse for the customers; of course it could also get better). And I've stood in the mall at Blarney Castle listening to the clerks pushing dcc on their unsuspecting customers urging them it is better to lock in the rate or tell them about fees that don't exist if they agree to dcc or tell them what a gret rate they're being given (which they compare to the posted bank rate for cash which of course is much much worse than the rate used by mc/visa. And sucker after sucker is taken in by it. Many years ago when I first ran into this garbage, another of the lies used when I refused to go along with the scam i.e. the clerk rang up the sales in USD without asking me was that the amount shown in USD was there as a courtesy that indeed I was being billed in punts (pre Euro). When I pointed out the statement on the salws slip (that I was offered the choice of paying in local currency and the converson rate is final), they switched tactics and told me they had no control over it that the terminal did it automatically and that sorry but it's too late (of course every terminal has to have provision for voiding a transaction; after all sometimes accidentally on purpose the wrong amount can be entered). Invariably this led to a disagreement, with calling over the manager who sometimes tried the same lies but more usually knew exactly how to void the transaction. At least in Ireland, there is no language problem (as I've yet to run into a prson in Ireland who doesn't speak English even though Gaelic might be the preferred language). But that problem is somewhat more apparent when they pull this garbage in Spain (France I can handle as I speak enough French). However, if you ever read some of the literature, you will see how they consider dcc to be a service to the customers who now knows exactly how much something costs in a currency they understand. And how wonderful it is for somebody on an expense account n submitting his or her diary for reimbursment. And finally it is now dcc that's scamming the populace. It's a serve and it's the greedy banks who now charge the 3% ftf that are the scammers. I don't believe there is anything that I HAVE to buy outside USA. |
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR
(Post 22735188)
However, if you ever read some of the literature, you will see how they consider dcc to be a service to the customers who now knows exactly how much something costs in a currency they understand. And how wonderful it is for somebody on an expense account n submitting his or her diary for reimbursment. And finally it is now dcc that's scamming the populace. It's a serve and it's the greedy banks who now charge the 3% ftf that are the scammers.
One of the things really helping DCC is people not knowing where their exchange rates come from anyway. Even if DCCed, few realise it and think (in the HK case) that it's their HK issuer bank to blame. Coincidentally it really helps one of the business mainland China is really trying to push down our throat - Unionpay. Unionpay has none of the DCC crap and has nil foreign currency conversion fee (even if its exchange rate is not nearly as good as Visa's) (the HK variant of Unionpay cannot be used without card being present so there is no foreign transaction fee to speak of). So thank you Visa and MC, you've just made us accept the warm (smothering) embrace of our mother country whenever we go abroad. Foreign transaction fee (without conversion) is another bank rape. We're starting to feel the pain here - not only Mastercard (where it is a reimbursement of a Mastercard association fee) but for Visa as well (which is pure bank profit). I've set up a foreign merchants list on hongkongcard.com to identify which merchants charge offshore, such as BA Avios redemption GB http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...w.php?id=11968 |
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR
(Post 22735188)
You get charged the fee as British Airways processes its credit card sales through a bank in Britain. Many consumers discover that the hard way when they buy 3 round trips using one of the Citi or Chase cards with the ftf of $800 each and see on their credit card statement a ftf of $72 and they blame the airline (or their travel agent if bought through a travel agency such as Orbitz or the like). Most of us here know the perils of using credit cards with ftf's for foreign airline tickets but a family making its first trip overseas probably doesn't.
As an off topic aside, this was also back when I thought because an airline was in the same alliance that you'd get miles for the flight. (This was before ATI between AA and BA, so I didn't get any miles.) Furthermore, this was back in late 2009 when BA was threatening to strike. My friend and I had made alternate flight arrangements with a close in booking on AA because BA had a travel waiver in place. However, by the time we got the AA ticket issued BA said the mater had been resolved and had completely scrubbed all mention of the strike and travel waiver from its website. After calling in, the agent confirmed that the travel waiver was no longer in place. At this point I was furious, and of course not being FlyerTalk savvy I blindly trusted what the agent said. I remember calling back in a huff just saying, "I don't care how little money I get back. I want to cancel this ticket right now!" Fortunately the second agent said that the travel waiver was still in place and couldn't possibly understand why we wanted to cancel our tickets. We ended up rebooking for travel six months later, but it was a long time before I ever threw any business BA's way again. As a final insult, when we did eventually make the rebooked trip, I was dismissed by the lounge dragon for trying to use my father's card to get into the lounge. What can I say? I have a boyish face. :D |
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR
(Post 22735188)
Let's face it and be realistic. Banks are always looking for ways to squeeze their customers to maximize their profits
That being said, if we all hated DCC fees that much, we could also band together like a "FT consumer union" or so, everyone pitch in $100, and buy a portfolio of BofA, Chase, Citi, VISA or MC stocks and go to their shareholders meetings to try to stop DCC. But frankly, whose stupid enough to buy stock and promote something that will make our stock value drop? |
I got DCCed again today. The Spar mini-mart at the Stuttgart train station here in Germany. I saw the clerk swipe my card and then hit a green button & out comes my receipt in USD with the fine print saying that I've been offered a choice of currencies & that I accept the final amount with a 3.5% markup (thanks to "Elavon Merchant Services"). I complained to the clerk & he assured me over and over that the charge was in Euros, but my Chase online account is now showing the exact USD transaction as pending vs the lower EUR amount ($12.41 vs $11.80/8.56EUR). I crossed out the DCC fine print & circled the EUR amount before signing, so hopefully that will help with my upcoming dispute. It seems this problem of "forced DCC" is becoming more widespread in Europe.
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Originally Posted by Newark7
(Post 22737095)
It seems this problem of "forced DCC" is becoming more widespread in Europe.
If forced DCC is becoming the norm, then we need to arm ourselves with the necessary tools to make it more easier to say no. Arguing about it with a low key minimum wage cashier or talking to the manager who have no control over corporate decision makers ain't gonna do nothing. So is spending your time writing the same thing over and over again. If they're forcing DCC systematically, we should be saying no to it systematically as well. Got a forced DCC receipt? Stamp it. Create a template letter to your bank, attached scanned copy of forced DCC receipt with stamp. Send it off (e-mail, fax, snail mail, etc) The more banks get overwhelmed by this, the more they'll realize that their labor costs involved in reversing DCC isn't worth it. |
Originally Posted by kebosabi
(Post 22737171)
More reason why people should get a portable stamp that reads along the lines of "Choice of currency was not offered by the merchant and was unable to decline Dynamic Currency Conversion."
If forced DCC is becoming the norm, then we need to arm ourselves with the necessary tools to make it more easier to say no. Arguing about it with a low key minimum wage cashier or talking to the manager who have no control over corporate decision makers ain't gonna do nothing. So is spending your time writing the same thing over and over again. If they're forcing DCC systematically, we should be saying no to it systematically as well. Got a forced DCC receipt? Stamp it. Create a template letter to your bank, attached scanned copy of forced DCC receipt with stamp. Send it off (e-mail, fax, snail mail, etc) The more banks get overwhelmed by this, the more they'll realize that their labor costs involved in reversing DCC isn't worth it. |
Originally Posted by Newark7
(Post 22737095)
I got DCCed again today. The Spar mini-mart at the Stuttgart train station here in Germany. I saw the clerk swipe my card and then hit a green button & out comes my receipt in USD with the fine print saying that I've been offered a choice of currencies & that I accept the final amount with a 3.5% markup (thanks to "Elavon Merchant Services"). I complained to the clerk & he assured me over and over that the charge was in Euros, but my Chase online account is now showing the exact USD transaction as pending vs the lower EUR amount ($12.41 vs $11.80/8.56EUR). I crossed out the DCC fine print & circled the EUR amount before signing, so hopefully that will help with my upcoming dispute. It seems this problem of "forced DCC" is becoming more widespread in Europe.
I don't think in this instance of "forced" dcc the banks are the guilty parties. I remember reading of a decision by an Australian court prohibiting the banks from prohibiting the use of dcc. And a always, one must continue to understand that the vast majority of people who travels don't know the difference (otherwise they wouldnt be using a credit card with a ftf or allow themselves to be dcc'd. As a matter of fact, many probaly think of how nice it is they don't have to whip out a calculator to figure out what the item cost in their currency and what a neat service the merchant is providing and even if you tell them they're being ripped off, they really don't care and throw out some trash like "I'm spending hundreds (or thousands) for this trip of a lifetime and what's another $50 or $100 for the convenience and peace of mind of knowing what I'm spending. If it weren't for that, dcc would have dbeen stillborn years ago. |
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR
(Post 22738461)
That's one of the great lies about dcc ("The amount in USD is only shown for your convenience. You are being charged in euro." Of course it might be unfair to blame either the cashier, probably some 18 year old student who doesn't know better or even the manager who might be 19 years old. This is the policy but you did right. But our pal kebosabi san is absolutely right. We ought to be able to produce a stamp with a red ink pad satating local currency option not offered as well as a template for a form letter in Microsoft word where we simply fill in the date, the oanda.com rate and what the amount should be and request the charge be charged back with a paragraph that we requested the charge be written up in local currency and the merchant refused to abide by the merchant's agreement to give you the choice of currency.
I don't think in this instance of "forced" dcc the banks are the guilty parties. I remember reading of a decision by an Australian court prohibiting the banks from prohibiting the use of dcc. And a always, one must continue to understand that the vast majority of people who travels don't know the difference (otherwise they wouldnt be using a credit card with a ftf or allow themselves to be dcc'd. As a matter of fact, many probaly think of how nice it is they don't have to whip out a calculator to figure out what the item cost in their currency and what a neat service the merchant is providing and even if you tell them they're being ripped off, they really don't care and throw out some trash like "I'm spending hundreds (or thousands) for this trip of a lifetime and what's another $50 or $100 for the convenience and peace of mind of knowing what I'm spending. If it weren't for that, dcc would have dbeen stillborn years ago. |
Originally Posted by Newark7
(Post 22748257)
Now I always say "charge me in Euros, not dollars" when I had my card over to somebody here, but I usually get a blank stare back with a "what are you talking about?" look on their face (since most places in Germany don't DCC customers, however you don't know until you get the receipt).
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 22748600)
I now say something similar too like, "Please charge me in euros/local currency." Many times I've gotten the :confused: look from the cashier that had the undertones of "What currency did you think we were going to charge you in?" I do question how many of the merchants are familiar with DCC versus those who are just mindlessly pressing the green OK button the cc terminal. If you're in a non-touristy area, you might rarely see a non-euro denominated card. Large department stores and hotels are wise to this though. I've only gotten hit with DCC twice, and one time was at the Frankfurt Marriott. Large American hotels seem to be particularly bad about forcing unwanted DCC charges on their customers.
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Originally Posted by jbcarioca
(Post 22748752)
Try any US Marriott-owned property with a non-US$ card.:mad: Marriott seems to be a past master at rip-offs, very carefully stated to be a derive to their valued customers. I quit using Marriott in protest over their UK practices. Only later i found out they do the same thing in the US. Bluntly, I'll not patronise them because of that.
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 22748600)
I now say something similar too like, "Please charge me in euros/local currency." Many times I've gotten the :confused: look from the cashier that had the undertones of "What currency did you think we were going to charge you in?"
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