Did you discuss it with the waiter? Did you ask to speak to the manager? I know you probably would have gotten the no speak English excuse or we have no control over it. In that case, cross out the statement about you accept the conversion as final and write local currency option not offered. Tell the manager you will be disputing the charge and it will be charged back. And if they still refuse to do the transaction properly, dispute the transaction with your bank either over the phone or by writing and demanding to see the signed signature slip. Hopefully that will do the trick. Chase is aware of the problem and for small amounts, prefers to simply credit the account for the difference and as long as they do that, this cancer will continue to metastasize through the travelling world.

Not sure about whether you have an actual data point, but in my case, they did not credit my account for the "difference," but for the entire charge.

It was at a store. I spoke with the staff, but they said it's been like that for a week or so. I speak Polish, so there isn't any language barrier :)

The best practice is if you're forced into DCC is to deface the receipt by crossing out the DCC language and writing "local option not offered" before signing. Take the issue up with the card issuer by disputing the transaction.

If there is no language barrier and the cashier/merchant are receptive, try working with them to see if there is an opt-out available. Some merchants have instructed their staff to bill in home currency because they're getting a cut of the profits on the ripoff exchange rate. Many times there's an option they're bypassing or selecting for you. Other times there are hidden or post facto opt-out options like pressing cancel or going into the POS terminal menu to select the transaction currency.

Fortunately Chase, as JEFFJAGUAR pointed out, is well aware of this issue.

Currency conversion - Chase being blamed - I don't think so
 

Please bear with the background information.

I’ve used my CSP outside the US many times in different currencies and ultimately the dollar charge on my credit card works out to coincide pretty well with oanda.com’s currency conversion chart. For example, a charge made in Greece in euros on September 15, 2016 had an exchange rate on my Chase bill of 1.126166666. On oanda.com’s currency conversion chart for that day, the rate was 1.12. There has always been this excellent correlation.

I’ve now been working with a South African tour company that chose to negotiate price with me in dollars, but now that I am ready to charge, the charge will be made in rand. Full disclosure – I knew the charge would be made in rand, which they claim is their law.

However - they have converted the price from rand to dollars using “a South African bank” that they will not disclose the name of. My negotiated deposit of $5569 converts at their today’s rate to 80,821 rand per an invoice they have submitted me. If Chase is consistent with how they have converted in the past, this will result in a rough dollar charge of $5911, a difference of $342 more than my negotiated price of $5569.

The disagreement I am having with the tour company is that they insist this overage is a result of Chase and that all the “blame” is on my end. Whereas the way I see it, the problem begins with their conversion of dollars to rand at a rate that that was unexpected to me and cannot be verified because they won’t disclose the bank name. From there, Chase will convert the rand on my bill no differently than it normally does.

There will be a second payment in the same dollar amount next year and the fact that their bank creates or adopts its own exchange rate concerns me for that payment.

For the life of me I just keep thinking that converting X currency to Y currency and then back to X, all on the same day, should result in the two X’s being SOMEWHAT close to each other. I am not at all implying I am looking for exact numbers – just a reasonable spread - certainly not $342 difference.

They are so adamant that I'm beginning to doubt myself and am hoping someone can help me understand! :confused: Thanks in advance!

You should have negotiated the price in Rand. You're basically getting charged for two conversions this way.

There is no need to even mention Chase in the discussion. The exchange rate will be determined by VISA (or MasterCard), not by the card issuer. Unless your agreement with the tour company references a benchmark for the exchange rate you have effectively agreed to allow them to convert Dollars to Rand at any rate they choose.

They picked the currency to negotiate in, and never having encountered this issue before (I should say - no one else ever used such a tactic on me) I didn't see any harm in it and did not request rand to be the quoted currency. Lesson learned! But give me some credit, at least I recognized what was happening now, and I have not made any payments, and can walk away. :) I was just looking for validation that my assessment was correct and that it is not my bank/card that is creating the problem.

I think you need to reframe the negotiation in a way that avoids the "your bank" versus "my credit card" finger pointing. Suggest that the conversion from the agreed Dollar price to the Rand card transaction amount should be based on a published source that both parties can access such as xe.com, oanada.com, VISA or a similar source which they might suggest. If the sources report different rates, calculate an average.

However, be aware that the exchange rate you actually pay will be determined on the date the transaction posts, which means it may still be different than you expect based on the negotiation. Substantial discussion here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...all-cards.html

Mia, I appreciate the suggestion, but they've been pretty clear that it's their way or the highway. The proposal says "a South African bank" and that is their position. Granted they have not been told outright we plan to walk away if this can't be resolved, but I doubt they will change their minds. They've been given ample opportunity to throw in something else of value to bring the difference closer together - an optional tour or a meal or ??? I asked the name of the bank - no response - which leads me to believe someone picks the one that is the most advantageous for them on a daily basis. And on the other hand I could be being too suspicious.

Who is actually getting the additional money that would come out of my pocket - the company or the bank or possibly both depending on their agreement?

And yes, I realize no matter what happened, everything was relative to the day of the transaction posting. I'm used to that, and that's fine.

One thing to consider: if they show they have no qualms screwing you in a relatively small way like this, how do you know they won't screw you in a big way in terms of the tour?

Maybe this is a good warning.

I think the tour company told you half of the facts truthfully and withheld the other half.

It seems factual that South African-based companies are not allowed to receive Rand online directly https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/...AR/td-p/788178 (posters mention trying to find alternatives to Paypal) (this thread is updated to 2016)

South African-based companies seem only to be able to receive USD online (may be currencies other than ZAR, but not ZAR directly) https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/.../788178/page/3

Then they have to go to a bank to convert the USD to ZAR before they can use it https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/...AR/td-p/788178 (they might not even be allowed to use that USD as USD).

So your tour co may be telling the truth with regard to ZAR. I think neither you nor they (even if they made a best-effort basis) can realistically get the wholesale rate you observed. You might be able to get it if you entered South Africa and charged your card directly. Or you are/they are a financial institution.

What they withheld is the exchange rate they need to convert ZAR to USD. Even if it is a real bank rate, it's a rather unpleasant surprise.

I'm sure best practice is to quote "R80,821, converted to US$5,911 by our bank (no alternatives accepted)". So you're paying US$5,911 - take it or leave it.

I'm not sure is there any chargeback available for a South African merchant that fails to quote. It's not a straightforward case where a merchant quoted you in one currency and deliberately charged another.

P.S. the option to pay Rand also seems open to companies not based in South Africa e.g. Cathay Pacific and British Airways, but if you're dealing with a SA-based company you're SOL.

Thanks!
 

I'm no longer the OP now that my post was moved into this thread but I just wanted to thank everyone who responded to my question about converting dollars to rand back to dollars. I tried Mia's approach of offering a middle ground, but was immediately shut down as I expected I would be. "Don't let the door hit you.." was pretty much the response. I ended up cancelling the tour over this issue. It was a learning experience. I've probably done close to 50 tours at least (day tours, multi-day tours, and so forth) that I negotiated from home in various currencies or in dollars, and was always mindful of the currency issue - maybe I was lucky until now, but everyone seemed to use the same rate or close to the same rate no matter where in the world we would be travelling, until now. It was really sad, but I did feel as Doc Savage pointed out - if this was their attitude now, what might result while we were travelling. Percysmith, your links to Paypal did provide insight as well. Never again will I deal in dollars when getting tour quotes - they will always be in local currency and understood up front that they will be charged in local currency. Thanks again for the help.

Bergy Bits in similar future circumstances, ask if they are able to accept a payment of USD via Paypal as a surety, on the understanding that the amount will be refunded (in USD) if you do show up as contracted and pay in ZAR in person.

This was what I did in http://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/6982?page=1 #10 (in my case, I put down $1,000 as surety for a merchant to procure an out-of-stock watch but the merchant was unable to procure the watch so refunded the $1,000 to me in full. I suffered a small exchange loss which you will not becasue you have USD-denominated cards).

With Chase, in my two past DCC disputes, they've given me courtesy refunds for the exchange rate differences (rather than disputing the full amount). When I do the dispute online (through Chase's website), I just do a partial dispute. Do you select full dispute? I'm curious as to the basis to dispute the full amount when it is really just an exchange rate difference for a few dollars (in my case, it is often under US$5).