|
On the other hand if you were a Swiss cardholder travelling in China you'll be cursing the DCCing banks for a double rip-off right now.
HSBC (not sure if just HK or globally) also screwed up by not updating its CHF rate between 19:30 and 19:45 allowing customers to arbitrage http://hkm.appledaily.com/detail.php...issue=20150115 . |
Originally Posted by YuropFlyer
(Post 24170613)
Ha! We finally found a case where DCC was saving you 25% ;)
Anyone which got DCC scammed in the last days in Switzerland (and the regular conversation was only due today or later) saved 30% on currency exchange, as the SNB just stopped their 1.20 rate and the CHF gained 30% against all currencies. So, any foreigners who bough stuff at ZRH yesterday and got scammed - you didn't. You scammed back ;) |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 24173940)
So for these rare, non-repeatable events the DCC proponents say we're naysayers because they can point to this and say, "See! See! You're locking in the rate." I guess it's good for those currency hedgers out there.
No, seriously, I guess you've read some of my contributions to this thread, and found myself to be strongly Anti-DCC. My posting was more meant humours, exactly in the way you're posting (this is the once-in-a-lifetime experience where DCC pays off for the customer) Unless the whole world economy goes crazy, or you're in a country having ....-crazy inflation (where DCC - I'm sure of that - wouldn't be offered :D ) - DCC is obviously always a scam. This event today was so rare that it will only be happening once every few years for a single currency - so the chance of you hitting it is probably less than the Saudis allowing a all-you-can-drink beer festival ;) ) |
Originally Posted by YuropFlyer
(Post 24174378)
Probably it was all made up by the DCC creaters ;)
Originally Posted by YuropFlyer
(Post 24174378)
No, seriously, I guess you've read some of my contributions to this thread, and found myself to be strongly Anti-DCC. My posting was more meant humours, exactly in the way you're posting (this is the once-in-a-lifetime experience where DCC pays off for the customer)
Originally Posted by YuropFlyer
(Post 24174378)
Unless the whole world economy goes crazy, or you're in a country having ....-crazy inflation (where DCC - I'm sure of that - wouldn't be offered :D ) - DCC is obviously always a scam. This event today was so rare that it will only be happening once every few years for a single currency - so the chance of you hitting it is probably less than the Saudis allowing a all-you-can-drink beer festival ;) )
I guess it's time for you to do some more traveling with your stronger CHF! Will the Swiss ATMs still dispense the 1000 CHF notes? :) |
DCC on the rise in Spain/Portugal
I’ve gotta say that the DCC situation in Spain and Portugal has gotten out of hand rapidly. Of my last twelve credit card transactions, only five times was it not offered. Three times it was offered and the vendor accepted my refusal. Twice the vendor simply handed me a credit card slip in dollars for signature, resulting in lengthy discussions in two different foreign languages before they were withdrawn. And two hotels simply took my written refusal, threw it in the trash after I had left, and unilaterally billed my card in dollars.
The first hotel only nicked me for about $5 and I decided to ignore it. The second, with its DCC upcharge of 7 percent, got me for $28. I have them dead to rights with photographs of my written refusal. I’ve contacted them and they graciously offer to refund my $28. I have disputed the entire transaction with MasterCard and requested that the hotel be prohibited from DCC transactions entirely. The situation has become bad enough that such aggressive reactions become necessary IMHO. |
Originally Posted by MChevreul
(Post 24175759)
I have disputed the entire transaction with MasterCard and requested that the hotel be prohibited from DCC transactions entirely.
Let me know if Mastercard International responds to the ban request. I'm not expecting they will unfortunately. |
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 24175842)
Let me know if Mastercard International responds to the ban request. I'm not expecting they will unfortunately.
|
I assume because this is EU, no check box is given? The slip already has finalised DCC verbage?
Did you have an AE with you, and consider voiding the DCC slip and using an AE? |
Even though DCC's may only be in the low single digit percentage of the bill, it could actually be a huge difference in a business' margins. I would not be surprised if this becomes more a norm rather than the exception.
I guess it's time to for me to apply an Amex with no FTF. When using Amex to avoid getting charged the DCC, you do not really need to ask for another slip, right? You just give them your card and Amex processes the bill without the DCC? |
Originally Posted by RTWRide
(Post 24176411)
Even though DCC's may only be in the low single digit percentage of the bill, it could actually be a huge difference in a business' margins. I would not be surprised if this becomes more a norm rather than the exception.
I guess it's time to for me to apply an Amex with no FTF. When using Amex to avoid getting charged the DCC, you do not really need to ask for another slip, right? You just give them your card and Amex processes the bill without the DCC? The American Express network does not support DCC, so the merchant will bill you in the local currency always. With AmEx you never have to worry about DCC. Problems arise, however, because not all merchants take AmEx, and some Visa/MC cards have more lucrative rewards. There are also few AmEx products with 0% FTF, but things seem to be moving in that direction for more of their products. (The Delta cards are now 0% FTF.) |
Originally Posted by MChevreul
(Post 24175759)
I’ve gotta say that the DCC situation in Spain and Portugal has gotten out of hand rapidly. Of my last twelve credit card transactions, only five times was it not offered. Three times it was offered and the vendor accepted my refusal. Twice the vendor simply handed me a credit card slip in dollars for signature, resulting in lengthy discussions in two different foreign languages before they were withdrawn. And two hotels simply took my written refusal, threw it in the trash after I had left, and unilaterally billed my card in dollars.
The first hotel only nicked me for about $5 and I decided to ignore it. The second, with its DCC upcharge of 7 percent, got me for $28. I have them dead to rights with photographs of my written refusal. I’ve contacted them and they graciously offer to refund my $28. I have disputed the entire transaction with MasterCard and requested that the hotel be prohibited from DCC transactions entirely. The situation has become bad enough that such aggressive reactions become necessary IMHO. A protip for hotels - but I can't always guarantee that this method will work - is to use a DCC-free card like AmEx upon check-in for the preauthorization and then switch the card upon checkout. Just tell the receptionist that you want to charge the bill to a different card. I did this at Hotel Arts in Barcelona in February without issue, and I've been doing this at the Novotel in Taoyuan. My trip prior to that was in I haven't been to Portugal, but in Spain every merchant is required to have hoja de reclamaciones sheets at the establishment. Sometimes they'll say they don't have them, but this is illegal. You are within your rights to call the police to make a sworn statement, and if you call their bluff they will definitely capitulate. I always specify that I want euros in a place like Spain, knowing how awful the DCC situation is there. Of the 7 DCC transactions, 3 asked if you wanted euros or your card's currency? For the 2 arguments with the merchant, did you end up paying cash after voiding the sale or get them to rerun the transaction without DCC? Finally, I'm trying to understand the mechanics of the hotel's DCC. Was it integrated with the guest folio, or did you have to sign a thermal or carbon copy receipt upon checkout? I'm happy that you're disputing the charge. Which card is this, and who is your issuer? Be sure to specify that it's a Reason Code 4846. How did you make a written refusal? Did you deface the credit card signature slip? There must have been something you signed for the charge. |
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 24168453)
You mean they only pass on the 1% Visa/MC part of the Foreign Currency Conversion fee or do the PRC banks absorb that too?
It's a game of timing, namely you are choosing getting hit by the crappy UnionPay rate, or having the good Visa/MC rate then later getting hit by the crappy bank rate... If you can anticipate EX fluctuation you may get something out of it. Usually this benefit applies to Platinum Cards and above with at least 1000 RMB annual fee. My wife's CCB Platinum has it, my ICBC Platinum does too.
Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 24167315)
Interesting, UnionPay actually recommends using DCC in the US? (http://www.unionpayintl.com/column/e...SA/index.shtml)
Originally Posted by AllieKat
(Post 24168833)
No. It's the opposite. They're recommending you select RMB and NOT USD.
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 24169078)
Err no. Literally read they are recommending dual-branded cardholders accept DCC!
http://www.unionpayintl.com/column/z...SA/index.shtml "如使用双标识卡，持卡人在美国无法选择银联网络支付，如商户提供动态货币转换服务（DCC），选择人民币 支付不通过银联网络结算！" I can't get my head around it though - are the Visa/MC portion of the dual-branded cards now allowed to be denominated in RMB? I thought this was not allowed? It's going to Europe which posses a challenge. But there are also EUR dual-currency cards and even multi-currency cards (not simply dual currency cards without 1% exchange fees). It's pretty interesting here in China. Also the rewards programs are always bad and you can miss a lot of points by what they call MCC clone or the sort. IMO Chase Sapphire Preferred beats all the cards in China. Just remember the IHG "infinite" card issued by BOC in China gives you only 10000 points for sign-up and carries a 20000 RMB annual fee, whereas the IHG Chase MC has a USD 49 annual fee and usually gives you 80000 points for sign-up. |
Originally Posted by zyxlsy
(Post 24176674)
Yes, the bank absorbs the 1%.
Originally Posted by zyxlsy
(Post 24176674)
Usually this benefit applies to Platinum Cards and above with at least 1000 RMB annual fee. My wife's CCB Platinum has it, my ICBC Platinum does too.
Originally Posted by zyxlsy
(Post 24176674)
Guys, please don't forget dual-currency cards issued in CHN usually has USD as the default currency of the "dual" channel. It is a native card when used in USA.
It's going to Europe which posses a challenge. But there are also EUR dual-currency cards and even multi-currency cards (not simply dual currency cards without 1% exchange fees).
Originally Posted by zyxlsy
(Post 24176674)
It's pretty interesting here in China. Also the rewards programs are always bad and you can miss a lot of points by what they call MCC clone or the sort.
Also a lot of merchants either miscode or "lease" a card terminal from a lower fee category merchant. http://english.cmbchina.com/CreditCa...4-90cfd9dad556 The following consumption scenarios does not accumulate bonus points： Code of merchant type Merchant type 1520 General contractor – residence and office building 7013 property agent – estate agents 5271 Motorhome distributors 5511 Automobile and wagon distributor – selling and leasing new or used automobiles, providing repairs and other services, and selling spare parts. 5561 Caravan and recreational vehicle distributors 5598 Sledge sellers 5599 Distributors selling automobiles, aircraft, and agricultural vehicles 5013 Automobile and spare parts wholesalers 5021 Office and business furniture wholesalers 5039 Wholesalers of construction materials not included in other codes 5045 Computer and auxiliary device wholesalers 5046 Wholesalers of construction materials not included in other codes 5051 Metal product wholesalers and service providers 5065 Electric equipment and spare parts wholesalers 5072 Hardware tools and product wholesalers 5111 Stationery, office supplies, copy and writing paper wholesalers 5137 Wholesalers of uniforms and clothes for men, women, and children 5998 Other wholesalers 6012 Financial product and service providers 7299 Providers of private services not included in other codes 8062 Public hospitals 8211 Public primary and secondary schools 8220 Public universities and colleges 8398 Charitable and public service organizations 8399 Non-profit service providers 8651 Governmental authorities 9211 Legal expenses, including alimony and the maintenance of child/children 9222 Penalties 9223 Bail money 9311 Taxes 9399 Fees for governmental services such as social security and statutory services not included in other codes 9400 Charges by embassies and consulates 5541 5542 Petrol bills/ Gas station 4511 Air tickets/ airline purchase 4111 4121 4131 4784 Other transport fees 5722 Electric home appliances 4814 4899 Telecommunication services 5994 7523 9402 Public utility services |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 24176639)
Would you care to name and shame the hotels for our reference here? I'd like to see the receipt with the 7% DCC offer if you can redact personal information and are in a position to post it. That's just criminal and probably no improvement over cash exchange rates at airport bureaus de change.
I haven't been to Portugal, but in Spain every merchant is required to have hoja de reclamaciones sheets at the establishment. Sometimes they'll say they don't have them, but this is illegal. You are within your rights to call the police to make a sworn statement, and if you call their bluff they will definitely capitulate. I always specify that I want euros in a place like Spain, knowing how awful the DCC situation is there. Of the 7 DCC transactions, 3 asked if you wanted euros or your card's currency? For the 2 arguments with the merchant, did you end up paying cash after voiding the sale or get them to rerun the transaction without DCC? Finally, I'm trying to understand the mechanics of the hotel's DCC. Was it integrated with the guest folio, or did you have to sign a thermal or carbon copy receipt upon checkout? I'm happy that you're disputing the charge. Which card is this, and who is your issuer? Be sure to specify that it's a Reason Code 4846. How did you make a written refusal? Did you deface the credit card signature slip? There must have been something you signed for the charge. 2) Of the seven DCC transactions, five asked, and three accepted my "no" without a problem. Two others ignored my "no" and attempted to bill with DCC, one successfully; two others never asked but simply did the DCC, one of which made it to my credit card bill. In the two cases where I was able to stop the attempted DCC, I made them redo the transaction and did not pay cash, but it was a big PITA. 3) I'm aware of the hoja de reclamaciones and would certainly have called for it had I known what was going on, but I didn't find out until I got my credit card bill. 4) The card is United Presidential Plus and the code is Other for grossly unsatisfactory product, I am challenging the entire bill on grounds of attempted theft, not on grounds of DCC. 5) The method of the scam should be seen in the three images I'm trying to append: at checkout, front desk prepares a base bill in EUR. I am asked whether I wish to pay in dollars, I say no. Out pops a DCC consent form; I check the EUR box and sign it. Attendant: "Can I put this all in an envelope for you?" Folds everything up and staples it and puts it an envelope. I never see or sign any credit card receipt. What she presents to me appears to be the base bill with the DCC form stapled to it, EUR selection plainly visible. In fact, she has slipped a completed credit card transaction with DCC, complete with the certification that I was offered a choice of currencies and chose USD, between the two invisibly. The commission (undisclosed) was about 7.7 percent (EUR/USD=.7477 vs. 8056 charged that day by my card on another transaction.) I do have clear photos of everything but it is not obvious to me how to post them within a message; the "Insert Image" button seems to want a URL. |
Originally Posted by MChevreul
(Post 24182623)
The method of the scam should be seen in the three images I'm trying to append: at checkout, front desk prepares a base bill in EUR. I am asked whether I wish to pay in dollars, I say no. Out pops a DCC consent form; I check the EUR box and sign it. Attendant: "Can I put this all in an envelope for you?" Folds everything up and staples it and puts it an envelope. I never see or sign any credit card receipt. What she presents to me appears to be the base bill with the DCC form stapled to it, EUR selection plainly visible. In fact, she has slipped a completed credit card transaction with DCC, complete with the certification that I was offered a choice of currencies and chose USD, between the two invisibly. The commission (undisclosed) was about 7.7 percent (EUR/USD=.7477 vs. 8056 charged that day by my card on another transaction.)
I do have clear photos of everything but it is not obvious to me how to post them within a message; the "Insert Image" button seems to want a URL. I suppose this would be clear with the images, but: 1) The base bill is the hotel's standard folio (on something like A4 paper), not a credit card terminal receipt, right? 2) The DCC consent form/check boxes are also on the A4 size sheets? 3) You have the credit card terminal receipt with "no signature required" and DCC scam sandwiched between the two sheets? You said this hotel graciously offered to refund the $28. Have you informed them what's up, and they're only acting sheepish since they got caught red-handed? I've never had anything as dishonest as a merchant discarding a signed signature slip. I know there are some merchants - see our posts on Greyhound Cafe - which simply ignore the selection and the terminal defaults to DCC, but these are sure bets when you dispute the transaction. Thanks for your detailed reply, and posting the photos would be helpful. A 7.7% rate is crazy, and it violates Visa/MC DCC policy if the rate is undisclosed. |
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