Should USA card issuers adopt EMV (Chip & PIN)? [Opinion discussion]
Nov 25, 2011, 11:14 am
#181
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Nov 25, 2011, 11:49 am
#182
Join Date: Jul 2007
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If you're addicted to the convenience of plastic, Barclay's has a product for you. You've had access to chip and pin as long as they've been around. Although the UK would be a better place to get an account (if you can), because the UK has the extra legal protections for PIN authorization.
I don't own that solution. The cash payment solution is a reality of consuming Europe. You may think carrying cash and counting coins is inconvenient, but it's not as inconvenient as discovering that you've just dined in a cash-only restaurant, and all you have is plastic, in which case you have to make a dash for the ATM, and perhaps leave collateral while you do so. Or even discovering it's a no-plastic resto in advance, and deciding to walk out.
Sure, but you can't impose requirements on merchants. They have a right to accept whatever legal tender they want. Some merchants even refuse certain bills. In Europe, the customer is not always right. It's a whole different mentality here.
The magstripe has orders of magnitude higher acceptance than chip and pin.
I don't own that solution. The cash payment solution is a reality of consuming Europe. You may think carrying cash and counting coins is inconvenient, but it's not as inconvenient as discovering that you've just dined in a cash-only restaurant, and all you have is plastic, in which case you have to make a dash for the ATM, and perhaps leave collateral while you do so. Or even discovering it's a no-plastic resto in advance, and deciding to walk out.
Sure, but you can't impose requirements on merchants. They have a right to accept whatever legal tender they want. Some merchants even refuse certain bills. In Europe, the customer is not always right. It's a whole different mentality here.
The magstripe has orders of magnitude higher acceptance than chip and pin.
But again, you beat all around the bush. We can accept everything you said in the various quotes and it still doesn't change the fact that many travellers are being inconvenienced for no reason at all and no I don't think I can establish a credit card account with Barclay's in the UK nor do I want to be on the IRS' radar by establishing an off shore account not to mention the associated fees......
I also can accept the staggering cost of converting the entire USA payment system but the point is that it's not necessary. The banks have established they can offer cards with chips....therefore the ability to process said cards is in place. So the question, you didn't answer, is that why would it be so terrible to issue cards with chips at cost (5¢ sounds about right) to those who feel they need them for international travel? What is there to lose? The analogy I used with you and you still haven't responded is the use of dual voltage adapters for common used battery chargers used in many electgronic devices today. It is almost unheard of in the 21st century to get a battery charger that does not operate on both 120/240 systems (you simply need a cheap plug adapter, not a voltage converter). End of problem. Issue cards with both magnetic stripes for use in the USA and chips for use in the rest of the world. I will not accept based on the fact such cards are now being issued that it would be a duffcult thing to do even if you don't want to revise all the pos terminals in the country. For that, in all due respect, you haven't been able to come up with an answer.
Nov 25, 2011, 11:51 am
#183
Join Date: Jul 2007
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But if I make a charge tomorrow using a magstripe card in Europe, am I protected by US law or the law of the country where I made the charge?
Nov 26, 2011, 6:24 am
#184
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Why not start sharing pics of where the traditional mag-stripe fails and annoys Americans traveling abroad:
Sydney Ferries - note "Mastercard and VISA accepted," but via "PIN authorisation only (no signature option)"
Sydney Ferries - note "Mastercard and VISA accepted," but via "PIN authorisation only (no signature option)"
Nov 26, 2011, 7:49 am
#185
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Haha. I haven't been back to Aus this year but neither of my 2 banks over there have written to me saying my PINs can be used in lieu of signature for local retail transactions. Seeing this Sydney Ferries sign surprised me.
My parents have been back this year and they definitely don't know their PINs. They haven't mentioned being asked for their PINs. I doubt they took any public transport, but they do park cars and buy petrol for the rental.
Guess its not too widespread yet. Also, it appears that Amex Au will not issue chip cards unlike Amex UK http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1678602
Re jeffjaguar's point about inconvenience - I agree if the amount involved is small. Personally I'm happy australia's changed over cos I now have chip and pin access (good for Europe) and my Australian debit balances and credit limits are very small.
If this is introduced in HK with my large limits there I'd seriously go on a card limit cutting exercise on all my Visas and Mastercards - I am still worried about being mugged with a big limit card, the criminal authorizing a HK$100k gold purchase using PIN, and the bank and merchant turning around and saying "our systems show the card was present and the correct PIN was keyed in, and you have not reported loss....."
Esp if HK doesn't adopt a burden of proof rule like th UK (correct PIN cannot be the only evidence a bank presents if cardholder disputes transaction as unauthorised).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_an...s.27_liability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV#Vulnerabilities
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...nsactions.html
At least for now - if such a large transaction did come up, I am able to say - "show me the merchant slip" and if there's a bad signature, it's up to the merchant to prove the transcation should stand.
It'd be cool if there's a staggered level of authorisation where <=HK$196/A$35 will need nothing, <=HK$1,000 or $2,000 will need a PIN, >HK$2,000 will need both PIN and signature. But I don't think Visanet currently supports this globally.
Haha. I haven't been back to Aus this year but neither of my 2 banks over there have written to me saying my PINs can be used in lieu of signature for local retail transactions. Seeing this Sydney Ferries sign surprised me.
My parents have been back this year and they definitely don't know their PINs. They haven't mentioned being asked for their PINs. I doubt they took any public transport, but they do park cars and buy petrol for the rental.
Guess its not too widespread yet. Also, it appears that Amex Au will not issue chip cards unlike Amex UK http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1678602
Re jeffjaguar's point about inconvenience - I agree if the amount involved is small. Personally I'm happy australia's changed over cos I now have chip and pin access (good for Europe) and my Australian debit balances and credit limits are very small.
If this is introduced in HK with my large limits there I'd seriously go on a card limit cutting exercise on all my Visas and Mastercards - I am still worried about being mugged with a big limit card, the criminal authorizing a HK$100k gold purchase using PIN, and the bank and merchant turning around and saying "our systems show the card was present and the correct PIN was keyed in, and you have not reported loss....."
Esp if HK doesn't adopt a burden of proof rule like th UK (correct PIN cannot be the only evidence a bank presents if cardholder disputes transaction as unauthorised).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_an...s.27_liability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV#Vulnerabilities
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...nsactions.html
At least for now - if such a large transaction did come up, I am able to say - "show me the merchant slip" and if there's a bad signature, it's up to the merchant to prove the transcation should stand.
It'd be cool if there's a staggered level of authorisation where <=HK$196/A$35 will need nothing, <=HK$1,000 or $2,000 will need a PIN, >HK$2,000 will need both PIN and signature. But I don't think Visanet currently supports this globally.
Last edited by percysmith; Nov 26, 2011 at 8:19 am
Nov 26, 2011, 7:52 am
#186
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No pic, but I had a fail at a rail ticket machine in Delft, the Netherlands (on my way to Schipol)...
In answer to the thread's question, YES! About time the USA caught up!
In answer to the thread's question, YES! About time the USA caught up!
Nov 26, 2011, 12:08 pm
#187
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Nov 26, 2011, 1:38 pm
#188
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As I've said, at least for the time being, chip and pin is the norm throughout most of the civilized and even uncivilized world, well at least chip. The problem is only growing worse by the day. A minor inconvenience today. A year from now a major inconvenience and perhaps while Rome burns, the banks fiddle and before we know it, Americans won't be able to use their credit cards anywhere in Europe, Japan, Canada. Is that you want? Is that what visa/mc want?
I'm not a parent, but "You wouldn't jump off a bridge just because your friends did, would you?" comes to mind.
Nov 26, 2011, 7:44 pm
#189
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Kyle: Yes, yes I do, Dad. Now let me tell you how it works in the real world. In the real world, I can either get a Chinpokomon, or be the only kid without one, which singles me out, and causes the other kids to make fun of me and kick my ....
Gerald Brofloski: Hmm... good point. Here's ten dollars.
Nov 26, 2011, 10:37 pm
#190
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I wish someone in HK or some other place near China (since China itself is just about monopolized by UnionPay) would offer a prepaid chip card. Every bank/issuing entity that does prepaid cards on this continent does them all chip-less, which means that when I go to Japan I've got to stand in line with everybody else if I want to buy train tickets with my CC.
Nov 26, 2011, 11:46 pm
#191
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I live in Australia and I have several chipped CCs including:
- a Visa issued by Citibank Australia
- a co-brand Amex issued by the Commonwealth Bank
- a Mastercard issued by the Commonwealth Bank
Each of these cards allows you to chose to use EITHER signature or PIN on transactions in Australia and I always sign. Very occasionally, like the Sydney Ferry example, a PIN is required.
I mostly recently used CCs overseas in Hong Kong and there signature is required.
- a Visa issued by Citibank Australia
- a co-brand Amex issued by the Commonwealth Bank
- a Mastercard issued by the Commonwealth Bank
Each of these cards allows you to chose to use EITHER signature or PIN on transactions in Australia and I always sign. Very occasionally, like the Sydney Ferry example, a PIN is required.
I mostly recently used CCs overseas in Hong Kong and there signature is required.
Nov 27, 2011, 12:30 am
#192
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Haha. I haven't been back to Aus this year but neither of my 2 banks over there have written to me saying my PINs can be used in lieu of signature for local retail transactions. Seeing this Sydney Ferries sign surprised me.
My parents have been back this year and they definitely don't know their PINs. They haven't mentioned being asked for their PINs. I doubt they took any public transport, but they do park cars and buy petrol for the rental.
Guess its not too widespread yet. Also, it appears that Amex Au will not issue chip cards unlike Amex UK http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1678602
Haha. I haven't been back to Aus this year but neither of my 2 banks over there have written to me saying my PINs can be used in lieu of signature for local retail transactions. Seeing this Sydney Ferries sign surprised me.
My parents have been back this year and they definitely don't know their PINs. They haven't mentioned being asked for their PINs. I doubt they took any public transport, but they do park cars and buy petrol for the rental.
Guess its not too widespread yet. Also, it appears that Amex Au will not issue chip cards unlike Amex UK http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1678602
amex au is already issuing chip & pin cards.
www.americanexpress.com/australia/chipandpin
Nov 27, 2011, 12:41 am
#193
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this is not true.
amex au is already issuing chip & pin cards.
www.americanexpress.com/australia/chipandpin
Interesting...see if my brother brings back a chipped Amex when he comes back in Dec
Originally Posted by alemdohorizonte
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Haha. I haven't been back to Aus this year but neither of my 2 banks over there have written to me saying my PINs can be used in lieu of signature for local retail transactions. Seeing this Sydney Ferries sign surprised me.
My parents have been back this year and they definitely don't know their PINs. They haven't mentioned being asked for their PINs. I doubt they took any public transport, but they do park cars and buy petrol for the rental.
Guess its not too widespread yet. Also, it appears that Amex Au will not issue chip cards unlike Amex UK http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1678602
Haha. I haven't been back to Aus this year but neither of my 2 banks over there have written to me saying my PINs can be used in lieu of signature for local retail transactions. Seeing this Sydney Ferries sign surprised me.
My parents have been back this year and they definitely don't know their PINs. They haven't mentioned being asked for their PINs. I doubt they took any public transport, but they do park cars and buy petrol for the rental.
Guess its not too widespread yet. Also, it appears that Amex Au will not issue chip cards unlike Amex UK http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1678602
amex au is already issuing chip & pin cards.
www.americanexpress.com/australia/chipandpin
Nov 27, 2011, 12:46 am
#194
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I just had lunch with a Sydney-sider who says chip and pin only like Sydney Ferries is more the exception than the rule. He's seen far more no-chip no-sign transactions which are A$35 or less (e.g car parks) (local cards only)
I just had lunch with a Sydney-sider who says chip and pin only like Sydney Ferries is more the exception than the rule. He's seen far more no-chip no-sign transactions which are A$35 or less (e.g car parks) (local cards only)
Nov 27, 2011, 3:29 am
#195
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That's a recent thing introduced here called (IIRC) Paywave. If you have a chipped card then for transactions under a defined threshold you don't need to sign or provide a PIN. Some stores have a reader that simply requires you to wave you credit card over it instead of inserting into a reader.
Merchants that require you to provide a PIN are unusual here, the vast majority take either PIN or signature. There is talk about removing the signature option but that's at least a couple of years away.
Merchants that require you to provide a PIN are unusual here, the vast majority take either PIN or signature. There is talk about removing the signature option but that's at least a couple of years away.