Miles for Rent/Mortgage/Tuition? [Consolidated]
Feb 23, 2010, 3:16 pm
#76
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That is not the test for bait and switch. They advertise one price, then when you are about to purchase say "oops, we meant THIS price" - that is bait and switch.
Have you ever actually looked at their website or tried it out? It sounds like you haven't. Please do so before criticizing. When you click on a payment type, you are taken to a screen where you select the payee, choose their mailing address, enter your account number and enter the amount of the payment - when that is done, your fee is displayed. In all cases, the fee displayed is $9.95. When you click to submit the payment and are taken to the details page to enter your CC info, only then do you notice the $9.95 is now about 3% of the total payment amount.
I very well understand how banking works - and you're trying to defend them in two conflicting ways. First you say they have a right to recover their costs - namely the credit card processing fee. When I (as did others) pointed out that charging people the fee to use their card violates all merchant agreements, now you're claiming it's a fraud protection fee? We all know it's a fee to cover their expenses and generate a profit - which on its face violates their merchant agreements.
Based on this, along with the bait and switch pricing tactics, their business model is not legitimate, their merchant agreements should be canceled and they should be shut down.
Have you ever actually looked at their website or tried it out? It sounds like you haven't. Please do so before criticizing. When you click on a payment type, you are taken to a screen where you select the payee, choose their mailing address, enter your account number and enter the amount of the payment - when that is done, your fee is displayed. In all cases, the fee displayed is $9.95. When you click to submit the payment and are taken to the details page to enter your CC info, only then do you notice the $9.95 is now about 3% of the total payment amount.
I very well understand how banking works - and you're trying to defend them in two conflicting ways. First you say they have a right to recover their costs - namely the credit card processing fee. When I (as did others) pointed out that charging people the fee to use their card violates all merchant agreements, now you're claiming it's a fraud protection fee? We all know it's a fee to cover their expenses and generate a profit - which on its face violates their merchant agreements.
Based on this, along with the bait and switch pricing tactics, their business model is not legitimate, their merchant agreements should be canceled and they should be shut down.
I didn't assert that they use the fee purely for fraud prevention. I explained that they may call it whatever they want, and use it for whatever they want. Who are you to demand that they justify what the fee is for, or why they collect it?
WOW, you are nasty. Just nasty and uncalled for. No one here is insulting you're opinions or points of view - why do you see fit doing it to others? How about assuming that some here may actually have the requisite knowledge to form their own opinions AND still disagree with you. If you think that's not possible - then you're posting on the wrong message board.
Further, since some of us actually have a law degree - and actually work with credit card processing companies everyday, some of us might fully understand what ChargeSmart is and isn't doing legally. Notice I didn't say you didn't understand - thereby getting my point across without hurling personal insults at you in the process.
Now, back to some of OUR issues with ChargeSmart:
BECAUSE MASTERCARD AND VISA EXPRESSLY PROHIBIT PASSING THAT CHARGE ONTO CARDHOLDERS.
THEY AREN'T CLAIMING THIS IS WHAT THE "LARGE PAYMENT FEE" IS FOR. Only you are, sparky. And if you're attributing it to accepting CC's and paying merchant fees therein - then THAT IS CALLED BAIT AND SWITCH.
Its not a statute, sparky, it's the Mastercard and Visa TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
So, which is it? A charge for using a specific merchant OR a charge to combat "all" of the chargebacks and fraud they've experienced?? You can't have it both ways - and neither can ChargeSmart. Why? BECAUSE IT IS A VIOLATION OF MASTERARD AND VISA's MERCHANT TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
Again, wrong. They are legally bound by the Terms & Condition of their agreements with Mastercard and Visa, which prohibit this.
Wrong again, sparky. ChargeSmart is not a bank - they're a payment processing clearinghouse.
Some of us would like that fee disclosed earlier in the process than on the very last page - after inputing not just which vendor we're paying, but ALL of our personal and CREDIT CARD information. If you don't mind being prompted on the very last page of the payment process for a fee that wasn't disclosed at the primary input page - than good for you. Some of us don't like that - good for us. We're not insulting YOU by expressing our issue with the fee disclosure placement. Well, unless you're ChargeSmart - then you're rather MONUMENTAL OVEREACTION to our opinions of ChargeSmart makes alot more sense.
Well said, my friend.
Further, since some of us actually have a law degree - and actually work with credit card processing companies everyday, some of us might fully understand what ChargeSmart is and isn't doing legally. Notice I didn't say you didn't understand - thereby getting my point across without hurling personal insults at you in the process.
Now, back to some of OUR issues with ChargeSmart:
BECAUSE MASTERCARD AND VISA EXPRESSLY PROHIBIT PASSING THAT CHARGE ONTO CARDHOLDERS.
THEY AREN'T CLAIMING THIS IS WHAT THE "LARGE PAYMENT FEE" IS FOR. Only you are, sparky. And if you're attributing it to accepting CC's and paying merchant fees therein - then THAT IS CALLED BAIT AND SWITCH.
Its not a statute, sparky, it's the Mastercard and Visa TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
So, which is it? A charge for using a specific merchant OR a charge to combat "all" of the chargebacks and fraud they've experienced?? You can't have it both ways - and neither can ChargeSmart. Why? BECAUSE IT IS A VIOLATION OF MASTERARD AND VISA's MERCHANT TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
Again, wrong. They are legally bound by the Terms & Condition of their agreements with Mastercard and Visa, which prohibit this.
Wrong again, sparky. ChargeSmart is not a bank - they're a payment processing clearinghouse.
Some of us would like that fee disclosed earlier in the process than on the very last page - after inputing not just which vendor we're paying, but ALL of our personal and CREDIT CARD information. If you don't mind being prompted on the very last page of the payment process for a fee that wasn't disclosed at the primary input page - than good for you. Some of us don't like that - good for us. We're not insulting YOU by expressing our issue with the fee disclosure placement. Well, unless you're ChargeSmart - then you're rather MONUMENTAL OVEREACTION to our opinions of ChargeSmart makes alot more sense.
Well said, my friend.
You didn't read what I wrote, or you didn't understand, as your points are off-topic in most cases.
I asked why any company would operate with a business model whereby their expected revenues are smaller than their expected costs. The laws aren't operative here - common sense dictates that Chargesmart wouldn't be charging $9.95 but paying ~2% without recouping costs elsewhere.
I asked why any customer would sign up for a credit card, or otherwise take substantial steps of preparation, before they fully understood if they'd need them or what they were getting into.
I inquired about that statute because of the assertion regarding illegality. Violating T&Cs isn't illegal.
They aren't violating anyone's T&Cs by assessing a fee to cover the incremental fraud risk associated with larger transactional amounts. If you feel otherwise, please be specific in explaining why and how.
Visa & MC do not have any legal authority over Chargesmart.
I understand you may *want* Chargesmart to disclose the fee sooner, elsewhere, etc., but your false assertion that not doing it the way you want amounts to bait & switch and/or fraud is out of line.
Feb 23, 2010, 3:24 pm
#77
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I've already addressed all of your points, and yes, I've used the site. They cannot give you a quote until they have all of your information. They do disclose (I even quoted it for you) that there are additional fees, right in the FAQ, and then they display the total *before* charging you. This is not bait and switch, as they disclose all they can up front, then fully before charging you. If they said "$9.95 is your one and only charge", then charged you more, *that* would be bait and switch.
I didn't assert that they use the fee purely for fraud prevention. I explained that they may call it whatever they want, and use it for whatever they want. Who are you to demand that they justify what the fee is for, or why they collect it?...
I didn't assert that they use the fee purely for fraud prevention. I explained that they may call it whatever they want, and use it for whatever they want. Who are you to demand that they justify what the fee is for, or why they collect it?...
Their statement about additional fees is misleading and vague. When I challenged a rep about it, I was told $5,000 was around the cutoff, varying by payee. What I found was the fee was consistent regardless of the amount, down to $100. They lied. It is quite clearly NOT a LARGE transaction fraud protection fee.
Bait and switch occurs when I am quoted one price, then given another price right at purchase. Your example of being charged another price is not bait and switch - it is fraud and theft, which is completely different.
It is my business what the fee is for, because they are quite obviously violating the terms of their merchant agreement. The agreement clearly states they may not charge customers for using the card and it's very obvious, clearly obvious, that their so-called "fraud fee" equals their transaction costs plus a little profit. That's a violation.
Earlier today I escalated this issue to a manager - I'm waiting for a callback. If I don't receive a callback or a satisfactory resolution, I will get Visa and Mastercard involved as well as my state AG.
Feb 23, 2010, 3:48 pm
#78
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: Marriott Platinum
Posts: 274
Wrong. They give a quote when they had all my information - payee, account number, and amount. The quote mysteriously changed between the entry page and the payment page.
Their statement about additional fees is misleading and vague. When I challenged a rep about it, I was told $5,000 was around the cutoff, varying by payee. What I found was the fee was consistent regardless of the amount, down to $100. They lied. It is quite clearly NOT a LARGE transaction fraud protection fee.
Bait and switch occurs when I am quoted one price, then given another price right at purchase. Your example of being charged another price is not bait and switch - it is fraud and theft, which is completely different.
It is my business what the fee is for, because they are quite obviously violating the terms of their merchant agreement. The agreement clearly states they may not charge customers for using the card and it's very obvious, clearly obvious, that their so-called "fraud fee" equals their transaction costs plus a little profit. That's a violation.
Earlier today I escalated this issue to a manager - I'm waiting for a callback. If I don't receive a callback or a satisfactory resolution, I will get Visa and Mastercard involved as well as my state AG.
Their statement about additional fees is misleading and vague. When I challenged a rep about it, I was told $5,000 was around the cutoff, varying by payee. What I found was the fee was consistent regardless of the amount, down to $100. They lied. It is quite clearly NOT a LARGE transaction fraud protection fee.
Bait and switch occurs when I am quoted one price, then given another price right at purchase. Your example of being charged another price is not bait and switch - it is fraud and theft, which is completely different.
It is my business what the fee is for, because they are quite obviously violating the terms of their merchant agreement. The agreement clearly states they may not charge customers for using the card and it's very obvious, clearly obvious, that their so-called "fraud fee" equals their transaction costs plus a little profit. That's a violation.
Earlier today I escalated this issue to a manager - I'm waiting for a callback. If I don't receive a callback or a satisfactory resolution, I will get Visa and Mastercard involved as well as my state AG.
Yes, I did read the FAQ, etc - all that we are saying is that they should calculate & display the complete fee right after we enter the merchant info, etc, and not a small 9.99 fee that suddenly jumps to 3% of the transaction.
Yes, we all understand that they are a business and they are here to make money - just do it in a straightforward manner instead of being sneaky.
Feb 23, 2010, 4:19 pm
#79
Join Date: Oct 2004
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You still haven't answered this question: No matter what the site says or does, do you think a reasonable person would assume that a company that has to cover a ~2% transaction fee would be in business if their revenues weren't at least slightly above this amount?
Do us a favor and let us know how your case goes. Should be funny to hear what the AG says if he takes a look at what you are asserting is bait & switch.
Feb 23, 2010, 5:44 pm
#80
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,905
Do us a favor and let us know how your case goes. We appreciate you taking the time to air your concerns and hopefuly rectify the problems that you've found this merchant. I hope it results in the resolution you (and many of us) would like.
See how easy it is to instill the FT spirit of community and support in one's comments?
Last edited by Ritz; Feb 23, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Feb 23, 2010, 6:13 pm
#81
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Feb 23, 2010, 8:22 pm
#82
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: Marriott Platinum
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Feb 24, 2010, 11:42 am
#83
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 9
Hi All,
To clear up some of the confusion, there are a few points that I think are important:
* An overwhelming majority of our customers are not subjected to additional fees. We look at this closely and can't stress this enough.
* All fees are disclosed before you complete your payment. You have a chance to review everything before submission. You do not need to complete your payment after review. If you disagree with the fees presented, you do not have to complete the transaction.
* You don't have to use ChargeSmart to pay your bills. If our service doesn't make sense for you there are many alternatives.
* The maximum payment amount on ChargeSmart is $5,000 and is unrelated to any additional fees.
* We are adding language to the first payment step to make more clear that there may be an additional fee that you will be able to review before completing your payment.
We appreciate the discussion on our service and take the feedback and concerns seriously. We know our offering isn't for everyone and are working to make the process more clear and easier to use without causing any of the frustration that some of you have experienced.
If our customer service folks haven't provided anyone with a satisfactory answer, please send me a PM and I'll do my best to answer as quickly as possible. You can also send an email to support (at) chargesmart.com and ask for me and our team will forward the message on.
Thanks,
Philip
To clear up some of the confusion, there are a few points that I think are important:
* An overwhelming majority of our customers are not subjected to additional fees. We look at this closely and can't stress this enough.
* All fees are disclosed before you complete your payment. You have a chance to review everything before submission. You do not need to complete your payment after review. If you disagree with the fees presented, you do not have to complete the transaction.
* You don't have to use ChargeSmart to pay your bills. If our service doesn't make sense for you there are many alternatives.
* The maximum payment amount on ChargeSmart is $5,000 and is unrelated to any additional fees.
* We are adding language to the first payment step to make more clear that there may be an additional fee that you will be able to review before completing your payment.
We appreciate the discussion on our service and take the feedback and concerns seriously. We know our offering isn't for everyone and are working to make the process more clear and easier to use without causing any of the frustration that some of you have experienced.
If our customer service folks haven't provided anyone with a satisfactory answer, please send me a PM and I'll do my best to answer as quickly as possible. You can also send an email to support (at) chargesmart.com and ask for me and our team will forward the message on.
Thanks,
Philip
Feb 24, 2010, 12:50 pm
#84
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So if the limit is $1100 before additional "insurance" fees, is it permissible to do 4 payments of $1100 instead of 1 payment of $4400?
If the regular fee is $14.95 per transaction, this works out to .0135 per mile - not great but generally better than buying from the airline.
If the regular fee is $14.95 per transaction, this works out to .0135 per mile - not great but generally better than buying from the airline.
Feb 24, 2010, 1:02 pm
#85
Join Date: Feb 2009
Programs: DL, CO, Hilton, SPG
Posts: 597
So if the limit is $1100 before additional "insurance" fees, is it permissible to do 4 payments of $1100 instead of 1 payment of $4400?
If the regular fee is $14.95 per transaction, this works out to .0135 per mile - not great but generally better than buying from the airline.
If the regular fee is $14.95 per transaction, this works out to .0135 per mile - not great but generally better than buying from the airline.
Feb 24, 2010, 1:26 pm
#86
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,905
Feb 24, 2010, 1:42 pm
#87
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The trigger point for the extra fee occurs when your payment amount exceeds the range (I believe he said range and not average, but it could be average) of 95% of the payment amounts for a given biller.
The reason our payment was such an issue is apparently due to a technical glitch where their system is including Wells Fargo car loan and lease payments with the mortgage payments, which lowers the range or average significantly.
Although not 100% accurate or guaranteed, a payment of about $1,200 for a mortgage should keep it inside the 'safe' zone, and I'd imagine that making multiple payments of that amount up to the total payment should be OK - although we could find out otherwise, rending the service useless for many of us.
Although getting $2,100 in Travelocity credits for $120 in fees seemed like the deal of the century, if I need to make 4 payments each time and pay $480 to get those $2,100 in credits, it is still a reasonably good ROI and I'd still consider doing it.
Feb 24, 2010, 3:32 pm
#88
Join Date: Feb 2009
Programs: DL, CO, Hilton, SPG
Posts: 597
I am exchanging PMs with Phillip now about my issue and I spoke with a manager about it yesterday. I'll take my complaints offline for a period of time to let Phillip get back with me - however I can share the following info from the supervisor.
The trigger point for the extra fee occurs when your payment amount exceeds the range (I believe he said range and not average, but it could be average) of 95% of the payment amounts for a given biller.
The reason our payment was such an issue is apparently due to a technical glitch where their system is including Wells Fargo car loan and lease payments with the mortgage payments, which lowers the range or average significantly.
Although not 100% accurate or guaranteed, a payment of about $1,200 for a mortgage should keep it inside the 'safe' zone, and I'd imagine that making multiple payments of that amount up to the total payment should be OK - although we could find out otherwise, rending the service useless for many of us.
Although getting $2,100 in Travelocity credits for $120 in fees seemed like the deal of the century, if I need to make 4 payments each time and pay $480 to get those $2,100 in credits, it is still a reasonably good ROI and I'd still consider doing it.
The trigger point for the extra fee occurs when your payment amount exceeds the range (I believe he said range and not average, but it could be average) of 95% of the payment amounts for a given biller.
The reason our payment was such an issue is apparently due to a technical glitch where their system is including Wells Fargo car loan and lease payments with the mortgage payments, which lowers the range or average significantly.
Although not 100% accurate or guaranteed, a payment of about $1,200 for a mortgage should keep it inside the 'safe' zone, and I'd imagine that making multiple payments of that amount up to the total payment should be OK - although we could find out otherwise, rending the service useless for many of us.
Although getting $2,100 in Travelocity credits for $120 in fees seemed like the deal of the century, if I need to make 4 payments each time and pay $480 to get those $2,100 in credits, it is still a reasonably good ROI and I'd still consider doing it.
Feb 24, 2010, 5:22 pm
#89
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 9
We are aware of the problems this biller's configuration is causing and know it needs to be fixed. The issue has been escalated to our engineers for a resolution. The fix is unknown at this time so I haven't been told an ETA. We will try to fix it as soon as we can. Send me a PM if you want an update or email me via our support system.... thanks.
Apr 7, 2010, 10:19 am
#90
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 4,843
We are aware of the problems this biller's configuration is causing and know it needs to be fixed. The issue has been escalated to our engineers for a resolution. The fix is unknown at this time so I haven't been told an ETA. We will try to fix it as soon as we can. Send me a PM if you want an update or email me via our support system.... thanks.