Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Coronavirus and travel
Reload this Page >

Coronavirus and masks/face coverings [Consolidated thread]

Old Jun 24, 20, 7:06 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: NewbieRunner
Moderator announcement - June 23, 2020:

Flyertalks moderators generally take a hands-off approach when it comes to judging the accuracy of members statements. While thats fine for travel debates, a pandemic is clearly a more serious issue.

A meta-analysis of 172 studies that looked at various interventions to prevent the transmission of COVID-19, SARS and MERS from an infected person to people close to them, published in The Lancet on June 1, found that mask wearing significantly reduces the risk of viral transmission.

Given the science, the forum moderators are disallowing any further posts that debate whether or not masks should be worn. Posts that do so will be deleted and members subject to discipline.

Please also note, we do not allow posting of conspiracy theories or racist terms used in place of Covid-19, coronavirus, etc.

- Coronavirus and Travel moderator team
Print Wikipost

Coronavirus and masks/face coverings [Consolidated thread]

Old May 14, 20, 8:45 am
  #601  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,311
Originally Posted by LonghornDXB View Post
In one part of the middle east you are seeing construction workers in 40C temps wearing masks in 10 hour shifts. Before masks, it was not uncommon to have heat strokes on a regular basis, one can imagine that would go up

The new woke thing now is to quote "science" as a justification for anything and everything; as if there is just one version of science

New rule to make mask wearing compulsory outdoors even if its a rural area - we are just following science

NY will require 40,000 ventilators (though they required less than 10k) - we are following science

Close everything for the next 6 months - we are following science

Stop people going to beaches even if its not crowded - that's just science
See when you are infected and talk or cough, virus leaves your nose and mouth. Every virion on the inside of a mask is one not in the air and not on surfaces for hours to days around you.
Masks have been standard of care in operating rooms and when taking care of immunosuppressed patients for 80 years.
The burden of proof is on you that they don't work, because the multi-generational null hypothesis is that they do.

Outdoors is completely different from indoors. Air flow is better and more random, and you are not as worried about the surfaces around you, not to mention UV light kills virus, just can't quantify it and put an exact time limit on it. You can also leave a mask out in the sunlight if you want to disinfect it faster but if too much heat, the elastic bands on disposable N95's will get brittle.
FlyBitcoin is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 10:03 am
  #602  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.7MM, AVIS PC
Posts: 4,865
Originally Posted by FlyBitcoin View Post
You can also leave a mask out in the sunlight if you want to disinfect it faster but if too much heat, the elastic bands on disposable N95's will get brittle.
An effective & good way to disinfect the N95 (and other types of) masks is at 70C (~160F ) for 30 minutes.
Latex (and the other materials) are safe up to this temperature without degradation.

I purchased a cheap toaster oven off Amazon for this exclusive purpose, as my better half wouldn't allow the existing one in the kitchen to be used for this purpose!

Added:
The masks should be 'hanging' off a wooden rod, and not touch metal surfaces in/of the oven.
narvik is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 11:09 am
  #603  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,311
According to this study https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...3Dihub#ecomp10

Virus even at 56C is reduced to 1% of original dose in 5 minutes and undetectable at 30 minutes.
70C renders it undetectable in 5 minutes.
Works for mask reuse as well as food.
And of course, refrigeration preserves virus.
narvik and chrisl137 like this.
FlyBitcoin is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 2:35 pm
  #604  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,311
Originally Posted by dalebreton View Post
I heard that masks are antibacterial and they do not help with viruses
They help when viruses are droplet spread and you need a lot of viral load to get sick. Only need 1 dry virion to get measles.
This is not measles. Not even close.

CDC says you need 700,000 PFU to get a macaque sick. In same category as flu. (SARS-1 was only 240). https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/fi...2020_04_14.pdf

If the mask cuts what you emit or breathe by a factor of 5-10, it just changed the severity of your case, if you even get sick at all.
FlyBitcoin is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 3:00 pm
  #605  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SIN
Programs: EK Blue, EY Guest, AA, QR
Posts: 288
Originally Posted by FlyBitcoin View Post
See when you are infected and talk or cough, virus leaves your nose and mouth. Every virion on the inside of a mask is one not in the air and not on surfaces for hours to days around you.
Masks have been standard of care in operating rooms and when taking care of immunosuppressed patients for 80 years.
The burden of proof is on you that they don't work, because the multi-generational null hypothesis is that they do.


.
Somehow masks are not recommended in Australia, just like they were not in the US and Europe 2-3 months back....

People gulp up whatever media "tells" them to do, in this case, backed up by somber looking scientists talking about "following science".

(Though not all reports agree, people always tend to cherry pick)

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...sed-sound-data

If a similar campaign is launched for gloves, you can give it 3-4 weeks, and people will say "gloves help prevent sickness, because they are used in operating theatres"

On a similar vein, we can look at the "6 feet apart or 6 feet under" crowd. People literally believe that if they are less than 6 feet apart from each other, they will catch the virus and die, choosing to ignore that a minority of the population is affected, and out of them the fatality rate is less than 1 or 2 in a 100.

Last edited by LonghornDXB; May 14, 20 at 3:36 pm
LonghornDXB is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 3:41 pm
  #606  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SIN
Programs: EK Blue, EY Guest, AA, QR
Posts: 288
My point in posting this is not to claim that masks will not help, it is to show that whether masks reduce transmission of viruses is a debatable topic

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.
LonghornDXB is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 3:42 pm
  #607  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NY Metro Area
Programs: AA 2MM Yay!, UA MM, Costco General Member
Posts: 47,440
Originally Posted by LonghornDXB View Post
Somehow masks are not recommended in Australia, just like they were not in the US and Europe 2-3 months back....

People gulp up whatever media "tells" them to do, in this case, backed up by somber looking scientists talking about "following science".

(Though not all reports agree, people always tend to cherry pick)

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...sed-sound-data

If a similar campaign is launched for gloves, you can give it 3-4 weeks, and people will say "gloves help prevent sickness, because they are used in operating theatres"

On a similar vein, we can look at the "6 feet apart or 6 feet under" crowd. People literally believe that if they are less than 6 feet apart from each other, they will catch the virus and die, choosing to ignore that a minority of the population is affected, and out of them the fatality rate is less than 1 or 2 in a 100.
Maybe masks arent recommended in Australia because they have so few cases that they dont need them.
narvik likes this.
GadgetFreak is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 3:45 pm
  #608  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,311
Originally Posted by LonghornDXB View Post
Somehow masks are not recommended in Australia, just like they were not in the US and Europe 2-3 months back....

People gulp up whatever media "tells" them to do, in this case, backed up by somber looking scientists talking about "following science".

If a similar campaign is launched for gloves, you can give it 3-4 weeks, and people will say "gloves help prevent sickness, because they are used in operating theatres"

On a similar vein, look at the "6 feet apart or 6 feet under" crowd. People literally believe that if they are less than 6 feet apart from each other, they will catch the virus and die, choosing to ignore that a minority of the population is affected, and out of them the fatality rate is less than 1 or 2 in a 100.
Nobody is a bigger critic of the media than I. Go over to the "fact-based" board and look a week back. Masks are not a "media" creation. The WHO and many prognosticators who were wrong from the start have lost all credibility and now have seemingly become deranged about this virus to the point of not functioning properly. First they undercalled it, then they overcalled it. Typical defense mechanism when you get something wrong in public once. I posted the Lancet paper over on the other board that estimated the 0.66% IFR and it has held up well since then.

I worked in a major urban ER during HIV when one of six admits was "HIV with fever". I also did an internship at CDC in addition to my "garden variety" MD degree and 29 years experience. This virus spreads in respiratory droplets (not dry virions) that leave a nose or mouth of an infected person. Everyone who gets infected does so because someone else let that virus leave their face. Droplets with the most viral load are also are larger, heavier and cannot stay in air very long, so they fall to surfaces where it can take hours to days to drop to 10% or 1% of original dose. This is a respiratory pathogen so preventing it from leaving the nose or mouth of an infected person is paramount. And if you have a well fitted mask, even a cloth one, then you are also protecting yourself. But hand washing and sanitizing surfaces people breath on, talk over, and cough on is also crucial. The majority of the SARS-CoV2 viral load on planet earth right now is on surfaces, not in the air. Gloves do nothing against this that a bottle of hand sanitizer frequently used or frequent 20 second hand washes cannot do.

HIV was blood and body fluids borne, therefore gloves were essential since you could be infected via needlestick or even a splash into a cut. It was very easy to find a mask in the hospital back then, but gloves, impervious gowns and boots were another story. You have to know your enemy and choose the right tools to beat it.

What you say "people believe" is not shared on this board and we post the links to back it up. I don't know who the "6 feet under crowd" is either. I have said since March on these boards that we can dance around this virus once we hammer down the initial peak and we are there now in the US and most of Europe. At least as best as we can get there. Maybe you need to be talking to some different people. We are glad you are here and hope you keep an open mind and read what we have to offer.

If you want society to begin the long journey back to normal, realizing that many will completely lose their cookies over any increase in new cases while the "econonmy is opened up" then we all need to just wear masks, wash our hands, and keep the curves flat in the places where they never peaked, and society will get to the other side.
FlyBitcoin is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 3:46 pm
  #609  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: 42.1% in PDX , 49.9% in PVG & 8% in the air somewhere
Programs: Marriott Ambassador Elite, UA 1K, AS MVP GLD 75K, DL Pt
Posts: 1,086
Originally Posted by LonghornDXB View Post
In one part of the middle east you are seeing construction workers in 40C temps wearing masks in 10 hour shifts. Before masks, it was not uncommon to have heat strokes on a regular basis, one can imagine that would go up

The new woke thing now is to quote "science" as a justification for anything and everything; as if there is just one version of science

New rule to make mask wearing compulsory outdoors even if its a rural area - we are just following science

NY will require 40,000 ventilators (though they required less than 10k) - we are following science

Close everything for the next 6 months - we are following science

Stop people going to beaches even if its not crowded - that's just science
Any rule or thing can be turned around, let me offer you a counterpoint for each

1) Does a mask restrain the droplets exhaled as well as filter particles and droplets when you inhale.
2) Does increasing distance from other people reduce the the risk of you giving something to them and them to you?
3) Does forbidding gathering of larger people in close proximity reduce the change of transmission
4) If you need predict you need "x" and the prediction is an inexact science should you error on the low or high side when being short can be very devastating

I recently traveled and for the most part seeing good behavior regarding masks and social distancing.

Freedom can be viewed as Freedom from or Freedom to.

None of these rules should be viewed as weakness, oppression, containment, or freedom from it, but instead viewed as an opportunity to be responsible, be respectful, be caring, have economic hope, of solidarity,

Last edited by chipmaster; May 14, 20 at 3:51 pm
chipmaster is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 3:54 pm
  #610  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,311
Originally Posted by LonghornDXB View Post
My point in posting this is not to claim that masks will not help, it is to show that whether masks reduce transmission of viruses is a debatable topic

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.
There is zero original research here.
Meta analysis allows an author to pick the studies that suit her conclusion and combine them, combining the error involved in each, to reach another less supported conclusion.
WWWNC is not CDC itself but a sister publication that has had many dubious publications recently in the advent of "publishing before peer review". The author was a grad student and was paid for by WHO possibly since WHO now desperately needs to support their own failures in the past.
narvik likes this.
FlyBitcoin is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 4:11 pm
  #611  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 208
Something I'm curious about. With an increasing number of airlines requiring passengers to wear masks, how are the airlines encouraging good mask hygiene during meal/snack service?

My concern is that when anyone touches their mask to remove it, their hands are contaminated. Their hands get further contaminated if they bring food up to the mouth. If the mask is just placed on their tray, the tray is contaminated.

Do the flight attendants pass out a new mask each time they distribute food or drinks? What about a bag for each passenger to temporarily store their mask? Hand sanitizer?

Much of this would also apply to restaurants and shops in the airports themselves. Outside of air travel, it would also apply whenever anyone is eating food outside.
tornado163 is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 4:24 pm
  #612  
Suspended
Four Seasons Contributor BadgeMandarin Oriental Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,332
Originally Posted by tornado163 View Post
Something I'm curious about. With an increasing number of airlines requiring passengers to wear masks, how are the airlines encouraging good mask hygiene during meal/snack service?

My concern is that when anyone touches their mask to remove it, their hands are contaminated. Their hands get further contaminated if they bring food up to the mouth. If the mask is just placed on their tray, the tray is contaminated.

Do the flight attendants pass out a new mask each time they distribute food or drinks? What about a bag for each passenger to temporarily store their mask? Hand sanitizer?

Much of this would also apply to restaurants and shops in the airports themselves. Outside of air travel, it would also apply whenever anyone is eating food outside.
Sooner or later personal responsibility has to come into play. I know some are worried that lazy and careless people will contaminate the rest of us, but other than local public shaming there isn't anything we can do about it. We are going to have to live with this virus and there aren't enough police out there to force mask wearing. It has to be a decision by each individual to wear a mask and wear it correctly. I know places like Japan and Hong Kong have very different cultures than the west, but they have proven that if the people really want to stop the virus, they can and will.

The experts have stated that all it takes is 80% of us wearing masks to stop the spread. I think we can do that.
stimpy is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 4:47 pm
  #613  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.7MM, AVIS PC
Posts: 4,865
Originally Posted by stimpy View Post
....there aren't enough police out there to force mask wearing......
This,

From what I heard, New Zealand had their police force out and about for COVID-19 lockdown, and they stopped anyone who was driving around and verified their reason for 'legitimacy'.

In our county in Pennsylvania, we have [I believe] a total of two cops (and some State Troopers).
There simply wouldn't be the police numbers to enforce any COVID-19 lockdown measures....
narvik is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 5:56 pm
  #614  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP, Hyatt Glob, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Plat, Total Wine & More Reserve
Posts: 3,324
Originally Posted by tornado163 View Post
Something I'm curious about. With an increasing number of airlines requiring passengers to wear masks, how are the airlines encouraging good mask hygiene during meal/snack service?

My concern is that when anyone touches their mask to remove it, their hands are contaminated. Their hands get further contaminated if they bring food up to the mouth. If the mask is just placed on their tray, the tray is contaminated.

Do the flight attendants pass out a new mask each time they distribute food or drinks? What about a bag for each passenger to temporarily store their mask? Hand sanitizer?

Much of this would also apply to restaurants and shops in the airports themselves. Outside of air travel, it would also apply whenever anyone is eating food outside.
I doubt the airines will take additional steps to encourage good mask hygiene. But I don't think that's their responsibility either. They'll just be satisfied if someone is wearing one at all.

But generally speaking, I understand the concern about how best to avoid potential contamination of the inside of the mask during temporary storage/while not being used.

Much easier to manage while making quick trips from home since one can rotate, wash, and/or disinfect masks. More difficult while travelling, I imagine.
econ is offline  
Old May 14, 20, 6:08 pm
  #615  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HHonrs Diamond
Posts: 1,311
Originally Posted by tornado163 View Post
My concern is that when anyone touches their mask to remove it, their hands are contaminated. Their hands get further contaminated if they bring food up to the mouth. If the mask is just placed on their tray, the tray is contaminated.
Always remove a mask by touching only the straps, not the front or the edges.
Use hand sanitizer after touching your mask.
If your mask has ear loops, let one side hang off one ear when you eat or drink and replace it.
If your mask has two ties behind your head, pull the upper one over the front of your head and let the mask dangle below your chin while you eat or drink.
If you wear an N95 with two elastic bands, remove mask by the bands and hang from one ear while you eat or drink. Those are the hardest to stow while eating and remove without touching the edges of the mask.
FlyBitcoin is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread