Copa 737 MAX 9?
 

As some folks may have heard, there was an explosive decompression incident last night on an Alaska Airlines 737 MAX 9 aircraft in flight while climbing to altitude from Portland, Oregon. Short version: it seems as the aircraft cabin pressurized, a section of the fuselage (airplane body) blew out, opening a large (door-sized) hole in its side. Luckily, there were no fatalities but this was obviously a serious accident, the aircraft made an emergency landing and everyone aboard was OK. The FAA has now temporarily grounded all 737 MAX 9 airframes that have the same configuration (specifically those with the the same "plug" that replaces an optional extra emergency exit door, when an actual door is not installed in that spot). These planes now require an inspection before they can be flown again. (The inspection does not take very long and does not require taking much apart, but is now a requirement).

COPA also flies the 737 MAX 9 in two slightly different configurations (one with 3 rows of seats in business class, and another with 4 rows of business class) - and they both appear to have this same "plug" where an extra emergency exit door could be installed but is not present (that looks like Row 27 on COPA's 737 MAX 9, evident due to the extra space ahead of and behind the window).

The FAA has jurisdiction for all aircraft flying in US airspace, so that would include COPA's 737 MAX 9 serving LAX and other US airports.

Anyone flying on a COPA 737 MAX 9 to/from a US airport in the next few days may experience an aircraft swap or other delay, as the impacted planes can't carry passengers until the inspection is done. How long that will take is up to COPA (my guess is that most of their maintenance takes place in Panama, rather than at US outstations; this inspection should not be a major project, but there's probably a long line forming right now for airlines with these planes needing the inspection).

Anyone flying a COPA 737MAX 9 in the next day or two? Please post back here with an update on whether or not your plane got switched out or if your flight experienced other schedule disruptions caused by this.

I'm on a CM MAX9 in about a week... guessing it will be fine, but who knows?

Title should read "737"

You won't be flying a Max 9 in a week. If you are in J, it could make a big difference

We'll see how quickly they get through inspections and what's happening next. Yes in J, but the MAX9 leg of the itinerary is just a short SJO-PTY so I'm not too bothered over whether it's a lie-flat or a barcalounger.

The plug is in row 26 when there is no emergency exit. The seat map on the Copa website looks like there is an emergency exit in that row

https://www.copaair.com/assets/seats-737-MAX-A-en-.jpeg

Did you mean "The seat map on the Copa website looks like there is NO emergency exit in that row"? Looks like a standard row to me, no? If you see an emergency exit there, where exactly do you see that?

Here's how the cabin layout is shown on aerolopa. Note the spacing between windows - row 27 has lots of extra (wall) space forward of/behind the window, indicating this is the "plug" row. The window spacing on the Alaska Air "blowout" flight 1282 looks the same (and, on the COPA 737MAX, I believe the row in question is 27, not 26, due to how COPA numbers rows - see below):


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...88bf3dc673.jpg

I also think you mean "NO"

In any case, it is a moot point as the Copa birds are all grounded:

Plenty of MAX9s lined up at PTY yesterday. The "plug" is seen (I believe) by an outline and extra space 12 windows behind the real dual over-wing exit rows.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...1ac70a0697.jpg

You are both right. I was on a small screen and thought the symbol above row 26 was the exit row symbol, but now that I am on a larger screen I can see that it is not.

Contrary to what's been posted in this thread, Copa has been flying the 737-9 MAX on the LAX-PTY route since the groundings. So either they have some aircraft without the plug, or they have completed some of the inspections very quickly.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/CMP472

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/CMP473

The Copa flight from PTY-SFO was a Max 9 on Saturday, flying back to PTY early on Sunday, but yesterdays PTY-SFO flight was not the Max 9. A note on the Copa website yesterday morning indicated they would have all the Max 9's back up and running within 24 hours. We are set to fly SFO-PTY at 0045 tomorrow morning, so I'm watching the Flightaware website with great interest, as we are flying business class. I'll know what plane we are on in about 4.5 hours, after the flight from PTY-SFO takes off. Fingers crossed!

According to Flightaware, the flight from PTY-SFO has taken off and it says it's the Max 9 aircraft. Is Flightaware usually fairly accurate with that info??

Chris

Looks like there’s a Copa Max heading to SFO right now.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...42a68ce72a.png

Forgive my lack of knowledge on these details. This does seem very strange to see these Copa MAX9s in the air or recently flying. Has the US FAA released a return to service procedure yet? And if not, how are these MAX9s on flights to/from USA destinations, even if the inspections have been completed?

Just boarded, and the SFO-PTY flight is indeed the MAX 9! Yeah!

Chris

According to this Copa has only grounded 21 of their 29 MAX 9s. Presumably the other 8 frames don't have the plug door since the grounding only applies to the ones with the plug door.

Pretty sure my flight was one of the MAX 9's with a plug. The plane was out of service yesterday, so I think they completed the inspection and put it back in service.

Copa refund request?
 

I have a reservation to fly LIM-PTY-LAX in a few hours. The LIM-PTY leg was not scheduled on a MAX bird but it was nonetheless cancelled. Their email says I can request a refund but i can't find a way to do it online. I bought directly from the Copa website as a guest and no I even created an account with them. But still no luck. Does anybody know? I'm currently on hold with their call center.

ETA: They eventually answered and walked mw through the long and convoluted online refund request. I bought a nonstop LIM-LAX through Latam.

Wow, Copa is really fast! Glad i was wrong

(It looks like all 21 of the birds will need to be inspected again)

I keep seeing news about Max groundings, and I also keep seeing Copa flying Maxs into LAX and SFO on FlightRadar24.com (saw two yesterday). Not sure what to make of that. I’ve got some Copa flights on this plane later this month, so I have some skin in this game.

Yup, I'm noticing the same things. And I have a MAX9 booking in a few days... definitely skin in the game!

There's gotta be some disconnect here.

Either the systems you're looking at are not reflecting accurate info for the aircraft type (meaning COPA's MAX9s are actually sitting on the ground and a different aircraft type has been swapped in), or COPA is asking for a serious smackdown from the FAA (or potentially worse). Imagine how things would go for any airline if a 737 MAX9 they're now flying (in clear violation of the emergency AD now in effect) had an explosive decompression event after they ignored the clear, well-publicized mandates from the FAA to ground the planes...

As someone who is scheduled to fly on a COPA MAX9 in about 6 weeks and again in the future, I hope (and would assume) COPA is following the mandates and playing by the rules. If they're not, I'll have second thoughts about ever setting foot on one ANY of their planes.

Edited to add: If COPA's website is to be believed, their 737MAX9s are grounded, and will remain so, until the FAA and Boeing get things sorted out with the required inspection details, and then they perform the required inspections. The ball seems to be in Boeing and the FAA's court right now (and has not moved in 24 hours...). Hmm.

The latest updates from COPA are here:
Impact on Copa Airlines flights following Boeing and the United States Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) recommendation
(Last update was Tuesday January 9)

Did they mention anything about the 737 max 9 or did you ask the crew?

Flying CM409 on 01/11/24
 

I will be flying on flight 409 Jan 11, 24 from SFO —> PTY at 7:19pm which is a 737max9.

I called COPA yesterday asked the rep if my flight was affected. After a few minutes on hold he came back and said it wasn’t affected. I then followed up with him and asked if it was one of the 8 of 29 flights that didn’t need inspection, and he followed quickly and confidently without putting me on hold and saying yes that it was one of the planes that did not need to be inspected. At the time I felt reassured.


I then inspected the seat maps that you all found and have made all the same observations and I have the same concerns as everyone else. It would appear that the plane is a plug panel plane so I am also confused why the same plane is flying.

I noted that the same flight 409 for tonight January 10 is now cancelled when it was not yesterday. So I am wondering if COPA is waiting until the last minute to cancel.

At this time, I have a backup United flight booked to my final destination (Lima) and if COPA cancels then I will take that. Since I booked the United flight today, I have 24 hours to cancel for full refund in the case the COPA flight actually takes off.

Anyone in the CM409 flight that was cancelled today (Jan 10) have any insights?

The cynic in me says: "Of course that's what the CS agent told you. It's the quickest and easiest way to get you off the call so they can move on." But maybe I'm too cynical?

Hopefully it's not because COPA has already inspected their 737 MAX9s and they figure they checked out OK.

I'm unclear on the "8 of 29" planes that they're saying don't need to be inspected. Exactly why don't they need to be inspected? I ask that because looking at the seat layout maps for COPA's 737 MAX9s, I see two slightly different configurations, but both of them sure look like they have the plugged-door there, and no sign whatsoever of having a real, functional emergency exit door there. My understanding (again, could be wrong) was that the only MAX9s that are not subject to the mandated inspections are those with ultra-dense seating (looking at you, Ryanair...) and therefore so many passengers that they are required to put in the additional (functional) emergency exit aft of the over-wing exits. I'm pretty sure COPA isn't flying any of those ultra-dense MAX9s, no?

So what makes COPA's 8 airplanes exempt from the mandated inspection?

For what it’s worth, the customer rep seemed genuine to help me. He has no incentive to lie to me especially when COPA is cancelling affected flights and offering full refunds.

I also agree and had the same questions exactly. It’s odd that they would inspect 21 of the 29 when they all seem to be using the plugin door.

if I ended boarding the flight and landing I’ll let you all know what I found out.

any insights from the previous poster who was able to fly the 737m9 this week would be greatly appreciated.

Alternate explanation: Initially, more than one airline figured all they had to do was inspect things, and the plane could go back into service. Alaska Airlines did exactly that: just hours after the incident (early Saturday evening), they started inspecting their planes, gave some the thumbs-up, and off they went the next day, carrying passengers (Sunday morning). Then the FAA stepped in and said oh-no-you-don't, the inspections must follow approved procedures, etc. etc. Alaska re-grounded their MAX9s, and now they're all sitting on the ground with pieces removed for inspection access...and the planes are still grounded waiting on the FAA (who is waiting on Boeing, or vice-versa)...and still (as of Wednesday evening) there's no approved inspection procedure from FAA/Boeing for the airlines to follow.

FWIW today Alaska announced all their MAX9s would be grounded through Saturday (which I think may still be very optimistic).

Maybe in the immediate wake of the incident, COPA did what Alaska did: a quick inspection, gave a shrug, buttoned up the access panels, and started boarding passengers again. Maybe they started flying and continued flying those planes for a while. But now, they seem to be cancelling flights (though not very far in advance). Maybe the CS agents working the phones just haven't got the updated talking points yet. Beats me. But if my COPA flight was scheduled tomorrow, I would want to have a Plan B in my back pocket. Good luck with yours.

That actually sounds like the most plausible explanation. I’ve got my refundable United itinerary booked in case the COPA flight is cancelled.

I’ll post what ends up happening with my COPA flight tomorrow.

COPA has two different plug door types on its MAX 9s, which explains why some are flying and some aren't. The differences in plug door types do not correspond to the two different seatmaps inside the planes.

The first type looks more like an exit door from the exterior and is fitted on the first eight MAX 9s to be delivered. For now, these eight planes are not subject to inspection and are thus still actively flying.

The second type is the one that blew out on the AS plane. It looks like a window from the exterior and is fitted on the 21 later-delivery MAX 9s. These planes are currently grounded with an unknown return-to-service date.

Look up images of frames HP-9901CMP through HP-9908CMP, versus frames HP-9909CMP onwards, to see the difference for yourselves.

Update on my CM409 Flight for Jan 11, 2024 from SFO->PTY

It is scheduled to fly out tonight on the 737max9.

I called COPA again today Jan 11 (23 minutes on hold) and got some conflicting information from my previous call. When inquiring about tonight’s max9, she said that it was a plug panel and had passed inspection. This was in conflict with the previous rep who reassured me it was not one of the 21 of 29 in their fleet that required inspection.

I then asked the rep to give me a refund of my non refundable fare given the inconsistent information and lack of transparency regarding the planes safety AND to honor the same offer that Alaska Air is offering their customers (full refund on non refundable flight). After multiple back and forths she wouldn’t budge saying that my fare didn’t qualify. She recommended I file a complaint on COPAs website.

I hung up and I stewed for a bit trying to scheme ways to get a refund or to proceed with legal actions, however I shortly realized that I could likely get a future flight credit if I cancelled.

So I called back again and after another 30 minutes on hold, the rep was happy to offer me an open ticket no questions asked. The open ticket must be used before 1 year from the date I booked the original fare. It can used through any origin or destination airport. There was a $75 rebooking fee per pax. My original fare was business promo ~3600 (SFO->PTY->LIM) in their lie flat dream suites.

As you recall, yesterday I had already booked a nonmax9 intinerary with United (SFO->HOU->LIM), anticipating I would fly COPA) so I will keep that.

I am a bit concerned by COPAs conflicting accounts and lack of transparency. Given this id rather not fly any max9s. As this is a developing situation, I didn’t want to go through the uncertainty again in 10 days when I return.

Overall, I would’ve preferred a refund, and perhaps I could get one if I spent more time dragging this out, however, at this time I need to move on with life and I am happy with my solution for the time being. I get the certainty and security of a nonmax9 itinerary and I won’t lose the money I originally spent on original the COPA flight. I had been planning a trip to Buenos Aires so I will book later in the year when all the max9 drama settles and we have more information.

If you don't want to fly on any MAX9's that's your prerogative, but Copa has not been flying any of the frames with the same plug door as Alaska on SFO-PTY (nor LAX-PTY). See the post upthread, but all frames with tail numbers -9901 through -9908 are not subject to the grounding since they have a different plug door.

Thank you for this explanation, it's clear and it makes sense. The photo of HP-9908CMP shows the difference (in exterior appearance) clearly: with a small round "porthole" placed slightly higher, rather than a single rectangular window whose appearance matches other windows. This is the first I've heard/seen of this variant, and explains why some of COPA's MAX9s are still flying while most sit on the ground waiting for inspections.

Is there a designation for the two different aircraft types? It would be helpful to know how to distinguish/describe them without resorting to photos (I like photos, but it's awkward to not have a verbal/textual way to disambiguate them). Obviously, the distinction is kind of important right now.

Are there any other airlines operating in the US (Alaska, United, etc.) that have the "other" door-plug-type (still flying) MAX9?

Warren B, this looks like good news for you:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...8ab3f7d698.png

I am also scheduled to fly on a Max 9 on Monday from PTY to MIA. Looking at the past week of flights, a few have flown, and a few have been cancelled. I am getting worried, since flights are now no longer available, so just crossing my fingers here.

I see on expertflyer that Copa has a mix of Max 9s and 737-800s on Monday. Maybe ask them to switch you to one of those 800 flights? That seems likely to reduce the risk of cancellation. Might be a window of opportunity for you now before a cancellation. Should that happen, you’ll be in the same boat as everyone else on your cancelled flight.

Yeah, a good idea. However, the number I call has a busy dial tone and then hangs up on me. Not sure what's the best number to use (I've been trying on: 786-840-2672). I also booked Basic Economy, so not sure if they'll even let me change my flight.

We are scheduled on CM193 SJO-PTY on Sunday, Jan. 14. It is still showing 737MAX9 as the equipment.

Checking on FlightAware I see that CM193 has flown most of this week, but was cancelled today and one other day. However, I have no way to see if they plan to fly it on Sunday, if it has been cancelled, if there will be an equipment swap, etc. The Copa app only shows the status as far out as 'tomorrow,' and I'm sure if I deal with this on Saturday my options will be extremely limited or none.

Is there some way to determine in advance if this flight is going to fly or not? Traveling with family and lots of luggage this time, so learning about a cancellation at the airport will be extremely difficult for us. I'd like to deal with this as early as possible, but I have no idea how to predict what will happen.

Any ideas?

I'm guessing that even Copa doesn't know the answer to that question right now. They are under great stress, and it probably comes to how well they are able to move around crew and planes -- much of that involving planes that are not Max.

This morning the flight is now showing a 737-800 as the scheduled equipment. I know there are never any guarantees, but that's the best situation we could hope for at the moment.