A CO PLT's Perspective on USA STAR Airlines
Mar 29, 2009, 8:01 am
#16
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: EWR and SAN
Programs: PWP Direktor of Homeland, CO Plat* 1MM,UA 1K,BD Gold,DL Gold,SPG Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 7,551
You would think with as many years of flying in/out of EWR and the growth the area has seen, CO would be experts at IRROPS.
When there are no issues, CO runs amazingly well operationally. The moment there is a hiccup in the system, they fail in epic proportions. Quite frankly, the airline isn't nimble enough to respond to issues that they should be used to. This could be a combination of things from a) agent not having the right tools to b) taking the empowerment away from the employees to make decisions.
Mar 29, 2009, 8:12 am
#17
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ACT/GRK/DAL/ABI/MIA/FLL
Programs: OMNIArchist, OMNIArchy!, OMNIIDGAS
Posts: 23,478
fozz you forgot a major one, not having the amount of 'spare' planes UA does jsut sitting around doing nothing. COs planes are very well utilized, not leaving much room for irrops schedules.
Mar 29, 2009, 8:39 am
#18
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: MFE / SAT
Programs: UA Premier Silver, Hyatt Platinum, Marriott Silver
Posts: 3,681
Don't forget UAs wonderful ICC which everyone except 1Ks must connect to.
Mar 29, 2009, 8:58 am
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: DEN
Programs: UA MM Plat; AA MM Gold; HHonors Diamond
Posts: 15,866
I don't get all this piling on on CO. There have been at least six instances in the last two years when Continental agents have taken good care of me during IRROPs or in other situations where they didn't HAVE to accommodate my requests.
Oh yea, and don't even try and defend UA's ICC...I have nothing but good things to say about Continental's phone agents.
I always deal with all airline employees ( Continental and others) in the way that I would like to be dealt with...maybe that has something to do with my positive experiences.
Oh yea, and don't even try and defend UA's ICC...I have nothing but good things to say about Continental's phone agents.
I always deal with all airline employees ( Continental and others) in the way that I would like to be dealt with...maybe that has something to do with my positive experiences.
Mar 29, 2009, 9:04 am
#20
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Programs: UA PM, DL PM, Bonvoy Titanium, HH Gold
Posts: 1,293
As a 1K on UA and PL on CO, I have had the opportunity to experience the good and bad of both airlines.
And, as a CLE based flyer, I can comment on treatment at the "hublet" to use a phrase coined at the latest DO.
The bottom line, to me is this:
* CO F is superior to UA F.
* However, almost everything else is better on UA (IMHO).
* Opportunities to upgrade to F are better on UA because of their use of e500s, CR1, SWU, etc.
* And, if one is not upgraded, UA E+ is far, far superior to CO Y.
* Standard saver awards are easier to redeem, for me, on UA than on CO.
* I can upgrade on TATL much easier, and with no fee, on UA than on CO.
* UA also waives the confirmed standby fee for 1K, so getting on an earlier flight is much less of a hassle than on CO.
* UA IRROPS do seem to happen much more frequently than CO IRROPS. That said, during an IRROP, I feel that UA values and works with me much more than CO does.
* As a CLE flyer, CO definitely has way more NS flights than UA, but if I am traveling alone on business (not with family) I am ok changing planes.
Yes, as a 1K, I don't have to experience the ICC. So that is definitely a bonus. I am just comparing UA 1K to CO PL.
Bottom line, if I ever had to choose one airline over another, it would be UA even with the connections I would have to take in ORD/IAD/DEN.
And, as a CLE based flyer, I can comment on treatment at the "hublet" to use a phrase coined at the latest DO.
The bottom line, to me is this:
* CO F is superior to UA F.
* However, almost everything else is better on UA (IMHO).
* Opportunities to upgrade to F are better on UA because of their use of e500s, CR1, SWU, etc.
* And, if one is not upgraded, UA E+ is far, far superior to CO Y.
* Standard saver awards are easier to redeem, for me, on UA than on CO.
* I can upgrade on TATL much easier, and with no fee, on UA than on CO.
* UA also waives the confirmed standby fee for 1K, so getting on an earlier flight is much less of a hassle than on CO.
* UA IRROPS do seem to happen much more frequently than CO IRROPS. That said, during an IRROP, I feel that UA values and works with me much more than CO does.
* As a CLE flyer, CO definitely has way more NS flights than UA, but if I am traveling alone on business (not with family) I am ok changing planes.
Yes, as a 1K, I don't have to experience the ICC. So that is definitely a bonus. I am just comparing UA 1K to CO PL.
Bottom line, if I ever had to choose one airline over another, it would be UA even with the connections I would have to take in ORD/IAD/DEN.
Mar 29, 2009, 9:22 am
#21
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Continental Gold Elite, United Premier Executive
Posts: 6,766
Well, once ATI is obtained, the airlines will be able to take a far more in-depth look into each other's operations...I fully expect many best practices from both CO and UA to be adopted across both airlines to the extent ATI, labor agreements, and managerial prerogatives allow.
Mar 29, 2009, 9:29 am
#22
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Right Creek, AZ
Programs: UA Silver, AA Lifetime Gold, Marriott Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 593
OP, I don't think taking one flight is enough to make a value judgment on any carrier.
As one who flew US for years, I can tell you (as most US elites, defected or otherwise will agree), it's a crap airline. Once CO joins *, and CO elites start picking up more US flights here and there, I am sure the feedback will reflect this.
As one who flew US for years, I can tell you (as most US elites, defected or otherwise will agree), it's a crap airline. Once CO joins *, and CO elites start picking up more US flights here and there, I am sure the feedback will reflect this.
Mar 29, 2009, 9:48 am
#23
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Clinging to the edifices of a decadent past from the biggest city in America nobody really cares about.
Programs: (ಠ_ಠ)
Posts: 9,077
The issue is that CO is not competitive on a loyalty basis. They are however very competitive on a schedule (non-stops) and price basis and for the majority of the customers they prefer, O/D generated by the hubs.
That's how Larry "works hard to earn your business."
...and hopefully that'll continue to be the case for all customers, or at least for the elites. To CO's credit they've acknowledged IRROPs is an issue for them and they're several initiatives in the works to help resolve this. However what's not acceptable is when agents operate under quasi-deceptive practices to disenfranchise customers of their options and rights. "I'm sorry, we don't have anything open until two days from now. Another carrier? Sorry, can't [won't or I don't know how] to do that." And yes, they're are agents that *still* do this.
To CO's credit (and they deserve a lot for this, IMHO) they'll actually listen to their customers. I truly hope they'll be able to take some of this feedback, distill it down and then implement change. What I don't want to see is them wring their hands, complain about complexity and then boast to me about the strength of OnePass.
Look it just this simple: Larry & Co. don't yet think OnePass has to be on the level of M+, AAdvantage, etc. becuase CO's been operating in their own little world. For going after their hub markets, which they already had, it was fine, simple and straightforward. But times are changing and CO can longer afford to keep the same standoffish posture they had in SkyTeam.
They need to pull their head out of the backsides and let OnePass grow up.
Oh and while they're at it they also need to go back and review the part about when Gordon burned the rule book. It's kinda strange...they have no problem throwing their elites and top tier under the bus and adding complexity when they can increase fee revenues. But as soon as the suggestion for allowing an agent discretion in the application of the fee, they start wringing their hands and whine about how their systems are too old, too expensive, too complex, etc. to facilitate this.
Well said. ^
That's how Larry "works hard to earn your business."
...and hopefully that'll continue to be the case for all customers, or at least for the elites. To CO's credit they've acknowledged IRROPs is an issue for them and they're several initiatives in the works to help resolve this. However what's not acceptable is when agents operate under quasi-deceptive practices to disenfranchise customers of their options and rights. "I'm sorry, we don't have anything open until two days from now. Another carrier? Sorry, can't [won't or I don't know how] to do that." And yes, they're are agents that *still* do this.
To CO's credit (and they deserve a lot for this, IMHO) they'll actually listen to their customers. I truly hope they'll be able to take some of this feedback, distill it down and then implement change. What I don't want to see is them wring their hands, complain about complexity and then boast to me about the strength of OnePass.
Look it just this simple: Larry & Co. don't yet think OnePass has to be on the level of M+, AAdvantage, etc. becuase CO's been operating in their own little world. For going after their hub markets, which they already had, it was fine, simple and straightforward. But times are changing and CO can longer afford to keep the same standoffish posture they had in SkyTeam.
They need to pull their head out of the backsides and let OnePass grow up.
Oh and while they're at it they also need to go back and review the part about when Gordon burned the rule book. It's kinda strange...they have no problem throwing their elites and top tier under the bus and adding complexity when they can increase fee revenues. But as soon as the suggestion for allowing an agent discretion in the application of the fee, they start wringing their hands and whine about how their systems are too old, too expensive, too complex, etc. to facilitate this.
Well, once ATI is obtained, the airlines will be able to take a far more in-depth look into each other's operations...I fully expect many best practices from both CO and UA to be adopted across both airlines to the extent ATI, labor agreements, and managerial prerogatives allow.
Mar 29, 2009, 9:51 am
#24
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Clinging to the edifices of a decadent past from the biggest city in America nobody really cares about.
Programs: (ಠ_ಠ)
Posts: 9,077
However the feedback will also reflect (and currently does, IMHO) that:
1. UA's really not as bad as people make out, espicially if you have status.
2. OnePass has some glaring deficiencies when compared to its peers.
3. Assuming no change in CO's processes and attitudes, partner elites will be perplexed and frustrated when they run into an IRROP on CO.
2. OnePass has some glaring deficiencies when compared to its peers.
3. Assuming no change in CO's processes and attitudes, partner elites will be perplexed and frustrated when they run into an IRROP on CO.
Mar 29, 2009, 10:44 am
#25
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: IAH
Programs: La Ministreuse de Surréalisme, CO Plat, MR Plat, SPG Plat
Posts: 11,358
It's been 4 years since I've been elite on UA, but when I have flown them since it's been paid F. I do what I can to avoid UA. After we join up later this year; that's not going to change. Yes, E+ is better than Co's Y. I don't think anyone can debate that no matter how much COolaid they've drank. I miss the SWU's too. Had I not moved to IAH I would have never switched to CO but if I moved away from IAH I would still stay with CO. Despite what is said here, CO has done things to maintain my loyalty. They are not perfect; no airline is. We all need to mix and match to find the airline(s) that work for us and I think this alliance will work far better for most of us than the one we're currently in. I have been a happy PLAT for over 7 years and don't think CO is taking their eye off the ball.
Mar 29, 2009, 10:49 am
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Francisco/Tel Aviv/YYZ
Programs: CO 1K-MM
Posts: 10,762
I've been enjoying my 1K status thoroughly. I've been upgraded 2 weeks in advance on PS flights (the food isn't quite as good as CO's and the alcohol quality has come down from what it was), but the seat is roughly equivalent to the 752 BF.
on CO I was sweating SFO-CLE/IAH while -EWR was a snowball's chance. Unlimited upgrades don't matter if you can't get them in the first place (as a plat).
Does UA have problems? sure. Their planes are older and break down. A few weeks ago I was heading back to the bay area, starting with BWI-DEN went MX. The agent said "its a mechanical and I think it'll probably creep on, lets get you out of here, I can put you on a n/s in 3 hours out of IAD, does that work? I'll get the cab voucher and upgrade the IAD-SFO ok? ".
I've NEVER experienced that on CO.
CO F is nothing special anymore really, except the transcon meal service. The seats are harder and more upright than UA's. The meal quality/quantity has gone down. CO has sapphire which is a big plus but in the end, they really don't have a big advantage in the F department. They do have a big advantage via E+.
on CO I was sweating SFO-CLE/IAH while -EWR was a snowball's chance. Unlimited upgrades don't matter if you can't get them in the first place (as a plat).
Does UA have problems? sure. Their planes are older and break down. A few weeks ago I was heading back to the bay area, starting with BWI-DEN went MX. The agent said "its a mechanical and I think it'll probably creep on, lets get you out of here, I can put you on a n/s in 3 hours out of IAD, does that work? I'll get the cab voucher and upgrade the IAD-SFO ok? ".
I've NEVER experienced that on CO.
CO F is nothing special anymore really, except the transcon meal service. The seats are harder and more upright than UA's. The meal quality/quantity has gone down. CO has sapphire which is a big plus but in the end, they really don't have a big advantage in the F department. They do have a big advantage via E+.
Mar 29, 2009, 11:04 am
#27
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: CLE
Programs: UA 1K MM, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 929
I was a UA 1K for 4-5 years before getting on the CO bandwagon a few years ago after a move to CLE. I have to say that I had never missed UA until earlier this week when I experienced the sort of IRROPS hassles I have read about many times on this board but never experienced personally.
Long story short, it all started with a mechanical delay then cancellation out of AUS. The gate agents at AUS were doing their best, but the lines were enormous -- so I immediately got on the phone to the so-called "elite" line. The agent I was speaking with had no interest in helping me. She wanted a change fee to rebook at all, putting me another airline so I could get home that night was out of the question. Eventually asked for a supervisor and got rebooked wo/a fee (remember folks, this was a mechanical).
As IAH began to get socked in due to weather, I called again trying to find another routing. A different agent was equally unhelpful -- first refusing to believe that the original flight was a mechanical, then, as I tried to explain, pointed out that she could see that I had already spoken to a supervisor that day (i.e. "you're a problem customer and I'm washing my hands of you").
I eventually got home that night -- 5 hours late -- but only because I was willing to spend much of that time debating with reservationists and waiting in lengthy lines at the airport. And this is how they treat one of their best (Platinum and CO* - whatever that means) customers.
Long story short, it all started with a mechanical delay then cancellation out of AUS. The gate agents at AUS were doing their best, but the lines were enormous -- so I immediately got on the phone to the so-called "elite" line. The agent I was speaking with had no interest in helping me. She wanted a change fee to rebook at all, putting me another airline so I could get home that night was out of the question. Eventually asked for a supervisor and got rebooked wo/a fee (remember folks, this was a mechanical).
As IAH began to get socked in due to weather, I called again trying to find another routing. A different agent was equally unhelpful -- first refusing to believe that the original flight was a mechanical, then, as I tried to explain, pointed out that she could see that I had already spoken to a supervisor that day (i.e. "you're a problem customer and I'm washing my hands of you").
I eventually got home that night -- 5 hours late -- but only because I was willing to spend much of that time debating with reservationists and waiting in lengthy lines at the airport. And this is how they treat one of their best (Platinum and CO* - whatever that means) customers.
Mar 29, 2009, 11:05 am
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: At This Point, Only G*d Knows!
Posts: 3,467
I live in Southeast FL (PBI/FLL) and UA does not even fly from my primary to airports. If I book with UA, my first leg will always be on US and their Customer Serivce (nay Customer Diservice) makes LIAT ("LEAVE ISLANDS ANY TIME") look good.
If I book UA on UNITED.com and if nothing goes wrong UA is fine, however, I am not a 1K and my last IRROP with UA about 7 months ago, I was shunted from the gate agent to 800-UNITED for help. The gate agent informed me that she is not paid enough for this kind of grief and simply walked off leaving 1Ks, lower elites, myself and others to fend for ourselves.
I spoke with UA India and after trying my hardest to get my point across, I gave up and booked a ticket on DL which was operating on-time. Side note, maybe that was UA's plan to make money, deal with India, loose the money (by not flying UA because the ICC is so useless that the only real solution is to fend for yourself) and fly another airline.
I am sure that 1Ks are treated well by the airline, my hunch and maybe I am totally wrong is that UA survives because of Milage Plus, not because UA is a great airline. From my experiences with FT and in the real world, UA is loved because of Milage Plus, not because UA's F/J/Y is such a great product.
I agree with J.Edward CO is not as concerned with loyalty, however, if given a choice, I would rather deal with US based RES agents as a general member than more lenient assistance if things go wrong as a 1K.
I should also point out that during CO IRROPS, I have never been totally stranded, delayed yes, annoyed, yes, but never outright stranded. In fact, I cannot thing of one instance where during a CO IRROPS I was not able to get where I needed to go.
Dan
If I book UA on UNITED.com and if nothing goes wrong UA is fine, however, I am not a 1K and my last IRROP with UA about 7 months ago, I was shunted from the gate agent to 800-UNITED for help. The gate agent informed me that she is not paid enough for this kind of grief and simply walked off leaving 1Ks, lower elites, myself and others to fend for ourselves.
I spoke with UA India and after trying my hardest to get my point across, I gave up and booked a ticket on DL which was operating on-time. Side note, maybe that was UA's plan to make money, deal with India, loose the money (by not flying UA because the ICC is so useless that the only real solution is to fend for yourself) and fly another airline.
I am sure that 1Ks are treated well by the airline, my hunch and maybe I am totally wrong is that UA survives because of Milage Plus, not because UA is a great airline. From my experiences with FT and in the real world, UA is loved because of Milage Plus, not because UA's F/J/Y is such a great product.
I agree with J.Edward CO is not as concerned with loyalty, however, if given a choice, I would rather deal with US based RES agents as a general member than more lenient assistance if things go wrong as a 1K.
I should also point out that during CO IRROPS, I have never been totally stranded, delayed yes, annoyed, yes, but never outright stranded. In fact, I cannot thing of one instance where during a CO IRROPS I was not able to get where I needed to go.
Dan
Mar 29, 2009, 1:18 pm
#29
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 358
When things go wrong co doesn't even follow there own policies ie trip in vain and most times don't know such policies exist. The execs listen but have not changed the problems that travellers face during irrops situation ,rather than blaming everything on atc why not get people on there way like ua and aa do.
Mar 29, 2009, 3:05 pm
#30
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: EWR and SAN
Programs: PWP Direktor of Homeland, CO Plat* 1MM,UA 1K,BD Gold,DL Gold,SPG Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 7,551
Does UA have problems? sure. Their planes are older and break down. A few weeks ago I was heading back to the bay area, starting with BWI-DEN went MX. The agent said "its a mechanical and I think it'll probably creep on, lets get you out of here, I can put you on a n/s in 3 hours out of IAD, does that work? I'll get the cab voucher and upgrade the IAD-SFO ok? ".
I've NEVER experienced that on CO.
I've NEVER experienced that on CO.