Enough already

 
Old Sep 19, 03, 1:51 pm
  #1  
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Enough already

Give me a break with all this bashing! Get a life. Delta did it and everyone screamed and was leaving them. Thats why today Delta is in bankrupcy, its just the opposite. As I always said if you want something go buy it. but most here including myself are looking to get something for NOTHING. If I get it great if not, I just hope I get it the next time.
I even had a few MRs that I purchased on CO that are now a waste or at least till 2005 being Silver or gold might help. But I dont blame CO, they got to do what they have to in order to stay in business. If you're not happy with the new system( Im sure itll help many) then move to any carrier but GROW UP and dont carry on like a little kid who had his ice cream taken away. There are just too many vital things happening around the world to let this get to me.
i understand that many will get pis-ed off, heck I didnt book a flight last Mon and it was $150 more on Tues w/o any notice, good morning. Rental cars , hotels are all doing the same. The game as we all knew it is over and dead. Every so often there will be a goody thrown out there but stop all the crying and just move on.
I had been a Gold with Delta and I left after all their changes as for CO Ill probably stay at Silver and see what happens. Got a permanet Platinum at AA but that doesnt help for upgrading since cant get it by means of not using miles or upgrage pts

[This message has been edited by craz (edited 09-19-2003).]
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Old Sep 19, 03, 2:07 pm
  #2  
 
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by craz:
But I dont blame CO, they got to do what they have to in order to stay in business.</font>
See, that's just it -- a lot of folks don't think this *will* help them stay in business; it will just accelerate into a death spiral if unchecked. And a lot of folks have much more at stake with CO with their status and accumulated miles than I do.

This whole thing can only raise more revenue for CO if you believe that these changes will encourage a significant number of travelers to pay over $1,000 for full-Y fare instead of (say) $300 for a discounted fare.

I don't know business travelers whose company will allow that. I don't know leisure travelers on anything remotely resembling a budget doing that. I don't see wealthy travelers doing that -- they'll just book straight F anyway, as usual.

So they are pinning their hopes on "business travellers" (most of whom are in extreme cost-cutting modes where cheapest available fare is *mandated*)...and perhaps a few less price-conscious individuals. I just don't see that as a "growth" market; if anything, that is shrinking.

Elite status and an occasional "free" trip aren't worth it if you have to pay 3x-4x more on each paid flight to get those perks. That's a sucker's bet, and apparently CO is banking on enough people doing it to make it work. The difference in price between Y and F is often much smaller than the difference between Y and a discounted coach seat, and in the end, the latter will likely be receiving the same level of service.

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Old Sep 19, 03, 2:20 pm
  #3  
 
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As much as I don't like the change, but I think you hit it right on the nail. United is still in BK, and AA is losing money left and right. Delta is actually performing better financially than AA and UA.

I can only wish CO approach this by using AA's Q points rather than Delta's method. The end is result is similar. I don't care if they award 3 times elite mileage bonuses for full Y passengers as long as I get my full credit.
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Old Sep 19, 03, 2:58 pm
  #4  
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It will be enough when the policies are rolled-back and Gordo-the-liar apologizes or resigns. Nothing less.
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Old Sep 19, 03, 3:20 pm
  #5  
JS
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One argument I've seen in these threads implies that CO is expecting people to purposely pay more for their tickets in order to gain elite status faster.

What CO wants to do is the same as what DL wants to do, and is the same as what AA wants to do -- they want people who pay high fares on other airlines to switch. They don't necessarily want people who pay low fares to go away, but if given the choice between keeping the low-fare buyer or getting the high-fare buyer, they'll take the latter.

Given the fixed size of First Class cabins, and the fact that increasing the size of F means removing coach seats, the airlines would prefer the low-fare buyer go away, to be replaced with a high-fare buyer, rather than doing whatever it takes to keep both of them.

Why do some people pay a high fare, you ask? They don't do so because they like paying more money, they do so because they book at the last minute, or they don't stay over Saturday night (in most markets).

I've also read that many people pay low fares sometimes and high fares sometimes. So what?!! "Low" and "high" are merely benchmarks. Calculate the average fare you pay, and see where you fit in the pack.

Finally, I would like to comment on the complaints that AA uses the "carrot" approach while CO and DL are using the "stick" approach. People, think about it -- MQM's, EQM', Q-points, whatever they're called -- they are arbitrary measuring sticks! There is no law, political or physical, that sets elite qualification standards at a certain number of miles/points/whatever.

In other words, you tell me which would be preferable: (Q=qualifying miles/points for elite status)

Airline A offers full Q credit on low fares, a 50% Q bonus on mediocre fares, and double Q on high fares.

Airline B is evil. They give full Q credit only on the high fares, a 25% Q demerit on mediocre fares, and only half Q on the low fares. Bad, bad, bad!

Which is better? A, you say? Wait, there's more...


Airline A requires 50,000 Q to be Silver, 100,000 Q to be Gold, and 200,000 Q to be Platinum.

Airline B requires 25,000 Q to be Silver, 50,000 Q to be Gold, and 100,000 Q to be Platinum.

Now which is better?

------------------
"There's no sadder sight in this world than that of a football player trying to think." -- Daria
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Old Sep 19, 03, 3:31 pm
  #6  
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JS:
I've also read that many people pay low fares sometimes and high fares sometimes. So what?!! "Low" and "high" are merely benchmarks. Calculate the average fare you pay, and see where you fit in the pack. </font>
The average fare, whatever it is, is now rewarded less than it was under the current plan. That is a benefit reduction, plain and simple, in a string of benefit reductions.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JS:

Airline A offers full Q credit on low fares, a 50% Q bonus on mediocre fares, and double Q on high fares.

Airline B is evil. They give full Q credit only on the high fares, a 25% Q demerit on mediocre fares, and only half Q on the low fares. Bad, bad, bad!

Which is better? A, you say? Wait, there's more...


Airline A requires 50,000 Q to be Silver, 100,000 Q to be Gold, and 200,000 Q to be Platinum.

Airline B requires 25,000 Q to be Silver, 50,000 Q to be Gold, and 100,000 Q to be Platinum.

Now which is better?

</font>

You left one contrast out

Airline B says "we're making things better by charging you more and taking away services" in public announcements led by a vulgar, lying blowhard.

Did airline B say "we're facing a hard economic reality, and therefore we're cutting back to try to stay afloat" No. Real men and women are honest. Lying scum call press conferences to create a smokescreen to fool as many potential customers as they can while crawling like worms in the darkness to rot-away their services while they hope nobody is looking...and then lie about how it is really better than it was.

This is what you want to defend? The pattern of deceit and contempt shown by Bethune, Kellner and Bergsrud?


[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 09-19-2003).]
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Old Sep 19, 03, 3:40 pm
  #7  
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NJDavid, all I'm trying to do is demonstrate some mathematics. Everyone is having a hissy fit over the fact that CO and DL are reducing Q's while good ol' AA is giving, and has been giving for a while, extra Q's.

The Q's themselves are useless. They only mean something when you look at the thresholds for elite qualification.

I realize that DL and CO have left their thresholds alone, so the net effect is raising the requirements for elite qualification. Yes, it is harder to become elite on DL and CO compared to AA. Maybe the elite population at CO and DL is too high, but not for AA.

------------------
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Old Sep 19, 03, 3:44 pm
  #8  
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JS:
NJDavid, all I'm trying to do is demonstrate some mathematics. Everyone is having a hissy fit over the fact that CO and DL are reducing Q's while good ol' AA is giving, and has been giving for a while, extra Q's.

</font>
Not correct.

Everyone is having a hissyfit because CO is reducing again, period. And lying about it again.

Lest you forget, the track record:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++
*Elimination of purchased First Class Upgrades, confirmed within 24 hours of departure.
*Elimination of ELT certificates good for confirmed advance upgrades.
*Elimination of advance upgrades on H fares
*Removal of top tier Elite capacity free rewards at reduced mileage.
*Elimination of reduced miles companion rewards
* Elimination of the Infinite Elite Program
* Elimination of Tier Bonuses
* Saturday night stay requirement added to standard reward tickets
* Implementation of the 30 Day Rule—“so Elites can get more international upgrades”
* Loss of ability to upgrade on Coach reward tickets
* Implementation of the 72 Hour Rule for international upgrades—produces many happy Nonrevs, and allows many Elites to experience the joys of a 31” pitch seat for 9 to 16 hours
* Elimination of the 50% phone-in reservation bonus for Elites
* Implementation of HoKeY fares, making CO the most restrictive of all U.S. carriers for international upgrades
* Elimination of 20,000 mile Off-Peak Awards, immediately after Gordo “promised” us that there’d be no further benefit cuts
* International upgrade availability “enhanced” by the addition of $600-800 BendForward “service” fees
*Elimination of free elite luggage tags
* Refusal of agents to manually upgrade EUA omissions
* Greatly reduced Bonus Miles opportunities, including the elimination of the very popular GGONE123 bonus and the elimination of Bonus Mile opportunities on Q & T fares
* Implementation of $4 drink charge on international flights
* Loss of ability to upgrade Continental.com Specials
* Elimination of OnePass miles on Continental.com Specials
* Implementation of the most draconian mileage expiration rules of any U.S. carrier, other than WN
* Elimination of Senior fares
* Raising Club prices after AmWest was forcibly dropped from the partnership by CO, resulting in the loss of access to all their clubs as well.
*Removal of value of unused economy tickets
*Removal of $35 redeposit fee waiver
*Removal of paper upgrade certificates
*Removal of all fee waivers for Elites
*Removal of no fee, same day flight changes
*Removal of automatic upgrade advantage for loyal advance purchase
*Removal of "A" movies from IFE
*Removal of normal headphones, replaced with "state of the art" (if the particular art is garbage) plastic ear clips
*Removal of major magazines in airport stands
*Removal of top-shelf liquor at clubs
*Elimination of ability to transfer One Pass miles to HHonors program
*Elimination of specialty meals
*Elimination of full EQM on lower fares.
*Increase of domestic mileage upgrades from 10K to 15K miles EACH WAY!
*Increase in Bend Forward international upgrade fees, even on HoKeY tickets
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++



[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 09-19-2003).]
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Old Sep 19, 03, 5:10 pm
  #9  
 
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That's quite a list.
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Old Sep 19, 03, 5:36 pm
  #10  
 
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NJDavid -

Great list, but let's not forget:

*Decrease in average price you pay for a mainline ticket, in 2000 dollars, from $361.32 in 2000 to $300.81 in 2002, a decrease of 16.7%.

*Reduction in the number of people per plane, from 74.5% to 72.1% of capacity, leading to a reduced chance that the middle-seat beside you is full.

*Significant increase in the chance your flight arrives on-time (83.5% in 2002 vs 80.7% in 2001).

*Significant reduction in the amount of time your plane spends on a taxiway.

*Significant reduction in the percentage chance of baggage handling error (3.14 in 2002 vs. 4.29 in 2001).


Source: Continental Airlines Form 10-K, University of Nebraska at Omaha Aviation Institute. Also, assumes 2.5% inflation.

[This message has been edited by fenstere (edited 09-19-2003).]
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Old Sep 19, 03, 5:43 pm
  #11  
 
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I am impressed by this list.

If what David claimed is true, then why did OP members put up with CO for so long?

The angry words in this forum from some OP members towards the CO management team are extraordinary. Even SkyMiles members have not been so harsh to the Delta Airlines.

CO headquater in Hoston must have assigned someone to monitor this forum. I wonder what's in their heads after going through more than 1,000 messages in this forum since Monday.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by H53Epilot:
That's quite a list.</font>
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Old Sep 19, 03, 6:01 pm
  #12  
 
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by craz:
most here including myself are looking to get something for NOTHING. </font>
it's hardly something for NOTHING-- it's something for directing your $5000, $10,000, or $15,000 worth of flying [spending averages for the various elite levels] to one particular company instead of its competition. that's a car. and no car dealer could treat any customer as some airlines do and get away with it.

one can quibble over the levels of benefits, sure-- the market price of these "rebates" is bound to fluctuate. but deliberately annoying people who control meaningful blocks of your revenue is suicide.
at the margin, replacing even a single Gold level customer totally would require finding up to 50 single-trip grandmas to pay $200 each for one trip.
only it would be more than that, because the Gold member's place would be taken on each flight only by someone willing to pay a little less for that seat.


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Old Sep 19, 03, 6:52 pm
  #13  
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by fenstere:
NJDavid -

Great list, but let's not forget:

*Decrease in average price you pay for a mainline ticket, in 2000 dollars, from $361.32 in 2000 to $300.81 in 2002, a decrease of 16.7%.

*Reduction in the number of people per plane, from 74.5% to 72.1% of capacity, leading to a reduced chance that the middle-seat beside you is full.

*Significant increase in the chance your flight arrives on-time (83.5% in 2002 vs 80.7% in 2001).

*Significant reduction in the amount of time your plane spends on a taxiway.

*Significant reduction in the percentage chance of baggage handling error (3.14 in 2002 vs. 4.29 in 2001).


Source: Continental Airlines Form 10-K, University of Nebraska at Omaha Aviation Institute. Also, assumes 2.5% inflation.

[This message has been edited by fenstere (edited 09-19-2003).]
</font>

Personally, I don't trust CO published statistics anymore...and so much so that I wouldn't even trust CO's 10-K to burn if it was set on fire.

But if that information is loosley based upon truth, each and every point can be accounted for simply with the retiring of the 727s and their (and select 737s) replacement with Jungle Jets.

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 09-19-2003).]
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Old Sep 19, 03, 7:13 pm
  #14  
 
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JS:
Yes, it is harder to become elite on DL and CO compared to AA. Maybe the elite population at CO and DL is too high, but not for AA.

</font>
Wrong. On CO, one can currently become Platinum with either 75,000 miles or 90 segments.

On AA, one can currently become Executive Platinum with 100,000 miles or 100,000 q-points. AA does not allow segment qualification for EXP, though hypothetically you could do it on 200 segments given that AA awards at least 500 miles per segment.

Conclusion: It is always been much harder to qualify for AA's top tier than Continental's. With the changes, Continental may be hoping to make Platinum qualification just as hard. You think they could have been a little less deceptive about it and just raised the bar to 100,000 miles with no segment qualification.
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Old Sep 19, 03, 7:29 pm
  #15  
 
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To David in NJ with the list of atrocities committed by the CO management

Well, I just purchased ewr-lhr/rome-ewr for $390 r/t in december and because of my status I stand to get, what, around 20,000 miles. I checked and this is less than 50% what this fare cost in 1952 (there were no ff awards then, of course) and I ride CAL's comfortable, new, on-time 767's. So as much as I love this airline, I won't take it personally if they tell me to beat it to another carrier when I'm paying rock bottom it's been a great run 500,000 miles with CAL, I still think the best run airline (and one of the best run businesses) I've seen in this country. And I am willing that most people who fly with Air Gordo would be wailing if it didn't make it through this winter and then they'd HAVE to make good on their absurd threats to go elsewhere in search of a better deal, which all but the most hard core CO haters know THEY'RE NOT GONNA GET.
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