So if the nuts are just heated (in BF, my nuts are usually heated, and there isn't even a seat warmer!) but not baked, does that qualify as a ramekin? Is this like "momentarily"?

Some thoughts on the service and cultural attitudes:

There are definite cultural differences in the concept of service around the world. Anyone who has stayed in hotels or shopped in Asia and North America will immediately notice the differences and flight service is no different. Heck, you can even notice the differences between NYC and Chicago shopping but there are broader differences between North America and other societies.

Without making any value judgments, here is the major difference and the origins. In a class-less society like North America, the concept of service originates in a barter system where the service is provided for a return in value (usually monetary) where no one is really "subservient" to the other.

In Asian countries or even in the UK for that matter, the history of a class system has defined what the nature of a service is over and above monetary transfer set amongst the background of a lower class serving the upper class for thousands of years. While the class system is no longer a necessary factor in many service situations even in Asia, the "subservient" factor is still an accepted characteristic of service. This allows them to provide service in a way that they do not feel is demeaning.

While the phrase "treat your customer like a king" is all but a cliche in North America, it has a realistic meaning in the East.

What that means is that it is easier for Asian companies to train and expect their people to "serve" in a way that North American service people would find unnecessary, demeaning or not covered by what they are paid for.

Just as some random examples, (this is the majority, there may be some bad apples even in SQ) SQ FAs unfold the blankets carefully over you not just hand you the blanket in a plastic cover. If your shoes are left out in front of the seat that would impede other travelers or their own service, they will pick it up themselves and place it carefully out of the way. If there are any items in the food service that is unwrapped or emptied from a container they whisk away the wrapper waste as soon as they see it and they are on the look out for it. They are on the look out for any items that may have dropped from your seat or tray and dispose it off immediately. You have all probably seen advertisements from JAL (or is it ANA?) where the FA is seen to be removing askew eye-glasses from a passenger who has dozed off highlighting the "service" concept. It is literal as well as symbolic and captures the essence.

If a North American airline were to include the above in its service training, they would have a minor revolt in their hands. The common reaction would be "we are not being paid enough to do this". It is not that you cannot get people in North America to provide that service but the cost of doing so is very high based on the monetary value placed on such things in the barter system. It is only in the extremely high-priced places in North America where you can find such service so that the people providing the service can be paid enough to do it. The mention of a Ritz Carlton concierge and price of that service in one of the posts above is an example. A concierge in an Asian Hotel may provide that same service for a fraction of that price even after considering standards of living.

I again want to mention that I am making no value judgments on any of the two attitudes towards service. Both may be relevant and appropriate and proper in the cultures in which they exist. When you have an International service that provides opportunities for direct contrast, of course, one has an advantage over the other. Also note that I have made no gender assumptions in the discussions above.

As to whether this is strictly according to culture, the answer is no. The airline management and training has a lot to do with it. Air India is a good example of an Asian airline where you can find some prison matrons who are worse than any FA you will meet on North American airlines. Lufthansa is a Western airline where the concept of service (while a bit different than asian) in FC cabins is better than some Asian airlines.

While the North American crew excel in efficiency and practicality over many of the Asian crews, the NA Airlines need to look for what "service" would be appropriate and deployable given the cultural attitudes amongst their employee demographics and the costs associated with that service.

In a competitive situation with International companies, they cannot depend on their customers to expect less because they happen to be North American over the long term. It is possible to define a level of service (with attention to detail, attentiveness, etc.) that can be achieved in North American airlines without hitting cultural boundaries on what is "demeaning".

This is not impossible. Look at all the French waiters that are doing well in British Restaurants who have worked out their own compromises between what they are culturally inclined towards and what the British are accustomed to from their butlers. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Hope that I have not offended too many people.

Venk,

Your treatise on socialogical underpinnings of good service is interesting, but musn't cloud our view of good vs. bad service.

Good service can be had in the US. Bad service can be had in Sing.

Airline service is largely based on airline product competition, demand and cost for FA labor, and the economics of providing good service (can I charge $2 for better service that costs me $1 to provide?). I believe CO could deliver a product near the quality of SQ if required and the economics worked out--in fact I'm often told (but cannot personally attest) that UA's Int'l F can hold its salt with SQ--excluding degradation in the last 12 months.

I agree with Analise that good service is good and bad service is bad. How it got that way doesn't particularly concern me, I just want to know what metal I should fly on the get the best product for the price.

(I'd call it "bang for my buck," but that may confuse the issue with those oh-so-attractive SQ Singapore Girls involved!)

-First in Class

Did I just make up that phrase? I think so.

Another malaprop, compliments of First in Class.

To plagiarize, "good service is easy to recognize". http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I didn't mean to imply any other way. The sociological underpinnings give an explanation for the current situation and what the reality of the "costs" involved are.

My only thesis is that "service" costs money. And it costs more money in the Western Hemisphere than in the Eastern Hemisphere. As I pointed out there are Asian airlines that are mediocre and western airlines that are good.

Let us say good salad ingredients are cheaper in the east than in the west. A restaurant in the east or west can make good or bad salad. It is just cheaper for a restaurant in the East to make a good salad where good ingredients are a pre-requisite.

For CO or UA to provide a high-level of service, it has to spend a lot more on the FAs or bring down the expectations of its FAs about the value of their services and insist on higher levels of service, neither of which seem feasible. Of course, it could hire "Singapore Girls" at much lesser cost but that would be so politically incorrect for CO. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
(I'd call it "bang for my buck," but that may confuse the issue with those oh-so-attractive SQ Singapore Girls involved!)

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http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Heck you would have to pay Western FAs top dollars just to have them dress like that and then they wouldn't respect themselves for it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Could you please look up the word "bake". I'm not sure if Merriam Webster is considered a "real" dictionary, but here is there definition of bake:

Main Entry: 1bake
Pronunciation: 'bAk
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): baked; bak·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bacan; akin to Old High German bahhan to bake, Greek phOgein to roast
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 : to cook (as food) by dry heat especially in an oven
2 : to dry or harden by subjecting to heat
intransitive senses
1 : to prepare food by baking it
2 : to become baked
3 : to become extremely hot
- bak·er noun

I think this definition would reflect the correct use of the word "ramiken" by the orignal poster, but then again we might have to look up the word "cook". Let me know what you guys and gals think.

Thanks for the information, it was quite interesting.

Look what you've started, yanks! I'm not sure about the ramikens, but if for those who complained about BF F/As, check out the definition of "cook, v.3". They take their cooking responsibilities very seriously in all senses of the word.

From the OED:

bake, v.

1. a. trans. To cook by dry heat acting by conduction, and not by radiation, hence either in a closed place (oven, ashes, etc.), or on a heated surface (bakestone, griddle, live coals); primarily used of preparing bread, then of potatoes, apples, the flesh of animals. (Thus, in the primary sense, distinguished from roast: but in transferred uses they are not sharply separated.) Often absol.

b. fig. To ripen with heat.

c. fig. To prepare, make ready. Obs.

2. trans. To harden by heat: a. in a (brick) kiln.

b. as the sun hardens the ground.

3. To harden as frost does.

4. To form into a cake or mass; to cake. Obs.

5. intr. (for refl.) a. To undergo the process of baking; to become firm or hard with heat. Of land.

b. To be made uncomfortably hot (by the sun, a fire, etc.). colloq.

6. Phrases and proverbs: to bake one's bread: to ‘do for’ one. as they brew, so let them bake: as they begin, so let them proceed. only half-baked: (colloq.) deficient in sense; half-witted.

7. Comb., in which bake, in sense of vbl. n. baking, is used attrib., as bake-kettle, -oven, -pan, -shop; bake office dial., (a) = BAKEHOUSE; (b) a baker's shop (Eng. Dial. Dict.). Also BAKE-BOARD, -HOUSE, -STONE, BAK-BRED, q.v.

cook, v.1

1. a. intr. To act as cook, to prepare food by the action of heat (for a household, etc.). (Now regarded as the absol. use of 2.)

b. Slang phr. to cook with gas (or electricity, radar): to succeed, to do very well; to act or think correctly; also to cook on the front (top) burner. U.S.

c. To play music with excitement, inspiration, etc. slang (orig. U.S.).

2. a. trans. To prepare or make ready (food); to make fit for eating by due application of heat, as by boiling, baking, roasting, broiling, etc.

b. with up (implying manipulation).

c. intr. (for refl.) Of food: To undergo cooking, to be cooked. Colloq. phr. (orig. U.S.) what's cooking?, what is happening? what is in train?
In the construction ‘to be cooking’, ‘cooking’ is historically the vbl. n. (to be a-cooking, i.e. in process of cooking); but this runs together with ‘to cook’, = ‘cook itself’ or ‘be cooked’; = F. se cuire. Cf. similar construction of bake, boil, cut, eat, taste, etc.

d. trans. and intr. To prepare opium for use by the application of heat.

e. trans. To make radioactive. Also intr., to become radioactive. colloq. (orig. U.S.).

3. fig. Also with up (esp. in a and b, rare in c).

b. To ‘get up’, concoct.

c. To present in a surreptitiously altered form, for some purpose; to manipulate, ‘doctor’, falsify, tamper with. colloq.

4. a. To ruin, spoil, ‘do for’. slang.

b. to cook any one's goose: to ‘do for’ a person or thing; to ruin or kill. slang.

cook, v.2

intr. To utter the note of the cuckoo.

cook, v.3

To disappear suddenly.

Either someone with a cashew-allergy raided the tray or the FAs separated out the nuts and served different nuts to different people. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif It was definitely just Cashews. Is there a backup of cans or bottles of these nuts that they open in case the catering messes up providing mixed nuts or some "accident" happens to them?

Sorry to hear about his. Franky, I don't think this is in the best interests of the customer or the airline to have such a system. I would have thought there would be a rotation in which senior FAs (for their experience) are accompanied by top-performing (but less experienced FAs) in premium routes.

I did hear that the senior FA on my return flight had 30+ years of experience. Having seen some really rude and obnoxious travelers, I had always wondered how they maintained sanity over a period of time.

Don't mean to sound insensitive but it is not the FA's responsibility but CO's responsibility to have the right items. The fact that FAs have a tough time with their jobs and careers which potentially affects service is also a problem for the airline to solve not something for the customers to put up with out of sympathy.

"...They are on the look out for any items that may have dropped from your seat or tray and dispose it off immediately..."

It amazes me that N. American flight attendants will step over all kinds of trash in the aisles for upwards of 8 hours without ever thinking of disposing of the errant articles. Must not be in the training guide or somehow is regarded as beneath their social status.

That is true, many do overlook the trash thrown in the aisle and don't think anything about it.

Question, why didn't the individual who dropped the article pick it up and hand it to the f/a?

And therein lies a significant difference in the way service is viewed.

While I do not excuse passengers throwing trash around for the FAs to be picked up, I have noticed sometimes that things do fall off sometimes and either the person is sleeping or in the middle of a meal unable to get up. But whatever the reason, what happens when an FA notices an item on the floor without it being apparent as to how it got there....

One attitude is that it is basically the passenger's responsibility and whoever dropped them can pick it up themselves at a later time and the item will lie there until it is noticed by the passenger or the flight ends and the cleaners come in. A different attitude is one in which the FAs help the passenger out in picking up such things as a service to the passenger regardless of how it got there.

In reality it is never entirely at those two extremes. But there are certainly differences in how far some of the non-North American FAs will go in this aspect.

I do agree, however, it is not clear as to where to draw the line on such things.

[This message has been edited by venk (edited 12-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by venk (edited 12-04-2002).]

I completely agree with this sentiment. If I were to 'handle' a client the way some FAs and ground staff handle their clients, not only would I be out of a job, but my company would be out a customer.

To be fair, this is not an indictment on all or even most of CO FAs, but I have certainly come across indifferent and outright rude service on more than a few isolated incidents.

As far as Asian carriers go, it has been my experience that service on international and intra-Asian routes is 'night and day' superior to international and domestic routes on North American carriers.

It is just a different attitude.

[This message has been edited by dsimon (edited 12-05-2002).]

On the subject of picking up discarded items vs. stepping over them for 8 hours. Unfortunately I earn the same amount of money for my flight regardless of how much trash I pick up or cabin walk throughs I complete. If you have an outstanding cabin crew please fill out your comment card and let the company know. If you have a poor cabin crew AGAIN let someone know. This is the only recognition or reprisal that we receive. And yes we really do hear about your comment cards, in fact Houston copies the card and will send a copy to me and my supervisor directly.

The SQ FAs also has youth and vigor on their side! They seem much more sprightly and energetic, compared to the matrons found aboard much US metal. (I have been told TWA were the worst!)