Interesting incident happened to me today which I would very much appreciate some Continental Very Frequent Flyer / knowledgeable fare rules flyer input and advice on.

Spouse and I flew last mid-week on US AIr's 40K 1st class plan ahead ff awards HOU to EWR; uneventful flight.

Return was to be today (SUN AM), and we checked in with an hour to spare and proceeded to departure gate to await boarding, but soon after US Air announced a maintenence delay. Visit to departure gate customer servivce rep confirmed we would be delayed over 4 hours due to missing a Charlotte changeover, which apparently is when USAir must invoke "RULE xxx" and go out and find us a tix on another airline, which they did on the spot and without any hesitation. Agent tells me he could book us a CON tix which would be about 45min later arriving in HOU, which was fine, and I specifically asked him if it was same class of service (1st class), which obviously I wanted to maintain. He confirmed it was.

Spouse and I had to, literally, go retrieve bags from US Air turnstiles on the bottom level, then catch airtran to another EWR terminal, then re-check and ticket w/ Continental, and proceed through the entire security process again, as if we had just arrived at the airport. Fine so far. Just worn out a bit. A little ticked now since I had envisioned going to US Air's elite lounge to wait for the flight to load and clearly that wasn't going to happen now.

When we got to the Continental ticket agent and presented the US Air/CON ticket coupon to be ticked and boarding pass issued, agent ominously told us that she could "not give us seat assignment" due to it being to close to boarding time and that we should head up to customer service immediately to get boarding passes and seat assignment. Also, ominously, she placed "stand-by" tags on our luggage when she accepted our two tags. At this point we suspected there was a foulup and, for starters, wish now she had told us there would not be FC seats available when we got up stairs. We might well have walked back to the USAir counter and forced them to re-book us on AA, on which I and spouse are both PLAT on. But - we took her advice and headed back through security to the CON service counter next to our departure gate.

The CON CSR politely confirms that, yes, we have FC tickets, but NO 1st CLASS SEATS ARE AVAILABLE and we WOULD BE STAND-BY at best. Gulp. At just over an hour before departure, I knew intuitively there would never be NO SHOWS for oversold-aready FC seats on a SUN mid-day flight.

Somehow, the departure gate had a Continental rep there a full hour early (not sure why), so line was forming, and we got in line to try to figure this out. Sure enough - US Air had correctly
"bumped" us under rule "xxx", and the tix clearly indicated first class, but Continental apparently didn't have the first class seat to sell at what now was about 1hr, 15min prior to departure, and, IMO, should not have *accepted* the involuntary bump.
Continental CSR was stumped how this happened, and first response, polite though it was, was that we should look to US Air for any compensation and basically accept a coach seat on CON. I told him we have been assured by the US Air rep as we were accepting the involuntary redirect to CON that we would get an equivalent FC seat...and that had the US Air rep ever mentioned we were not getting FC for our return leg, we would have asked him to try AA, Delta, or whomever. So, our sense was that CON's computer screwed up in accepting our invol. rebook. After about 30min of uncomfortable discussion, our rep left to go find a supervisor....and then in 10min or so the CON supervisor arrives and attempts to explain that 1) US Air rep had somehow, and he had no explanation for how it happened, direct booked the two seats on CON's computer system *but failed to call CON to get their ok* or *call ahead* as he (US Air CSR) apparently should have done either prior to, or simultaneously to booking the two fc seats on CON...as in that was the first mistake 2) he then admitted CON should not have accepted the FC booking and that though there were coach seats still available, spouse and I would would not be seated together, and would likely get two middle seats. From FC on US Air to two separate, WAAAAYYY in the back of the plane middle seats on CON in less than 45min. Trip was going downhill fast.

This supervisor told us they had grabbed two coach seats and put them on hold for us, and that they would do their best to get us our two FC seats.

Aircraft (757 I think) had 24 FC seats, and they were booked solid....3 people were late, but ultimately all 24passengers made it, so CON could not, in the end, provide us our FC seats that out tix clearly confirmed us for. Senior-level manager left us with the promise that he would contact us in next few days to offer some form of compensation.

So....am left with several questions, and solicit any advice from those who have "been there, done that".
1) were we, in fact, ABSOLUTELY entitled to SAME CLASS OF SERVICE from CON *once they accepted the booking* ? Or was CON only obligated to provide us a *coach seat* for the rule xxx involuntary transfer tix ?
2) given either answer, and CON's computer system apparently oversold, within an hour & 30 min of the flight, two FC seats (actually this supervisor told us there were at least 2 more people in the same boat as we were coming over from another airline for this one also w/ oversold FC seats), didn't this make CON liable for oversold conditions ?
3) As I see it, once CON accepted the invol redirects, US Air was "off the hook" for any liability, and as of now has no blame, other than to meet my already-low expectations for being unable to fly me on a r/t flight for the first time I've opted to use them in about 4 yrs. So, they blew the flight, but at least did the *right thing* to the best of their ability and obligation. I can't see where US Air has any liability in this involuntary DOWNGRADE due to CON's accepting our FC bookings, when they were already OVERSOLD on FC already and the flight was less than 2 hrs from departure.
4) if/when this supervisor does call me as promised, what would be fair to ask for ?

My sense is, in order a) two coach domestic r/t vouchers b) "x" dollars voucher, equivalent to the difference in fare between coash and fc, x2 (we had two seats fouled up) c) ) if not cash vouchers, which we strongly prefer, then at least enough OnePass miles that would otherwise be required for two coach seats to be upgraded for this distance (EWR-HOU)

Although CON acted as professionally as the occasion allowed, and did manage to get us two coach seats together neat the final boarding call, clearly, through no fault of our own, we went from being FC on US Air to coach seats near the tail of a 757, for the return leg of a 3hr flight, essentialy entirely due to a CONTINENTAL foulup in accepting our FC booking in the first place.

TIA for your input and advice.

[This message has been edited by ILUVCITIBANK (edited 10-13-2002).]

accidental double-post

[This message has been edited by ILUVCITIBANK (edited 10-13-2002).]

Just a few points.

If I read the post correctly, you were traveling on frequent-flyer tickets; if this was the case, you were VERY lucky. US had no obligation to put you on another airline if you were traveling on ff tickets. The only obligation they had was to get you to your final desitination on one of their airplanes. It is in the fine-print.
2. Although US rule 240'd your tickts to CO, it is US responsibility to make sure you have seats in the correct cabin. It is not uncommon for an airline to say "it is taken care of" just to get you out of their hair. <I am an ex-airline employee>. Getting a FC seat, on CO <where there are theoretically unlimited elite upgrades for all levels>, an hour and a half before departure on a Sunday afternoon is virtually impossible.
3. Since did get to your final desitination, despite being in coach, the absolute MAX you are entitled to is the mileage difference between coach and fc on the one-way flight.

CO owes you nothing. And the CO rep was right, you should ALWAYS call to make sure seat are left in the cabin you are trying to sell at the last minute unless you are booking it on that airline;s computer. Sometimes the res systems are a little behind in updating seat availability.

ps...you are kidding about asking about getting the cost difference between a coach and fc ticket, right?

------------------
Friends don't let friends fly RJ's.
I am not real smart, but I can lift heavy things.

[This message has been edited by Seth (edited 10-13-2002).]

Seth,
Yes, tix were, all along, 40K (what AA calls) domestic fc plan ahead awards x 2.

So you are saying CO has no liability at all, and US Air might owe, best case, the difference in miles for one leg, between fc and coach ? ie, 40K minus 25K, divided by two, so 7500 miles per each (mine and spose) ? That speaks nothing for the hassle and inconvenience of the day...and merely mathematically reimburses me for the difference in seat value. I would not be thrilled with this type of an offer but understand your logic.

Did CO not incur the literal liability of two FC seats by "agreeing" to sell to US Air two rule 240 FC 1-way seats ? IOW the "US Air originated/frequent flyer" distinction was now superceded by the terms of our new ticket ?

BTW - the CO supervisor also informed me, politely, that CO had the legal right to refuse a rule 240 transfer for up to four hours after it happened, which would have put us right back to US Air to re-book, but he was not going to be doing that in this case and would do everything possible to get us our fc seats. So - seems to me to be further - anecdotal perhaps - evidence that he felt *some undetermined* liability to fill the tix requirement. No ?

Yes, I agree....in retrospect it would have been a miracle to have gotten two fc seats on a flight so proximate to the same timeline as our original US Air flight, on a busy SUN afternoon no less, but CO made it clear they could and would be glad to get us confirmed fc seats on a flight about 4 hrs later....so it sure appeared to me they accepted some if not all of the liability, FC liability at that, not just "coach liability*. Confirmed further by the fact they waitlisted us for fc and did everything short of bumping actual confirmed fc passengers....to get us out two fc seats. Of course, given that, we could have kept our delayed, confirmed fc seats on US Air to begin with....and would have had the initial CO ticket agent been forthright and told us what our status was when we first presented our bags and US Air issued CO coupon....all could have been avoided.

Guess my point is, even if US Air had no obligation to Rule 240 us if I understand your first point, the fact is they did, immediately, do so...which caused a certain chain of events to occur.

THEN, because CO sold two FC seats a mere 1hr 30min or so prior to a full flight already, they furthered the screwup....and IMO, at least logically, the fact the seats were originally were ff tickets...was now lost and not an issue and the *new* CO FC seat tickets I held in my hand had as much value and liability as any other FC tix. As far as I could tell, and I can go back and scrutinize my US Air-issued CO FC coupon, there is not a mention made that my original FC seats were ff tix-originated.

As for whether I was serious about asking/expecting cash value refund of the different between the two classes....well, we know, absolutely, the actual cash value of the revenue AA/US Air/CO whomever reveived for those miles was 2cents or more....so these were $800-valued r/t tickets, or worth $400 ea for the return leg in my calculation, and I bet CO charged US Air more than $400 ea for the return leg since US Air *bought* FC seats...so guessing CO probably charged US Air as much as $500 for this one-way return leg FC seat, which they then were unable to provide...and I know I could have sourced at $200 or less for a discounted, crappy seat waaaay in the back of coach, when I otherwise booked my US Air tix...yes, I could see $200 or more due us for a downgrade that was entirely not our fault. Subjective though the value I place on the downgrade may be, had CO not screwed up by SELLING a FC seat it didn't have, on an involuntary bump from another airline, we would have never been in the situation we ended up in. Yes, we can blame a "slow computer update" or we can blame CO forgreedily overbooking both FC and coash, it turned out, as they were then trying to solicit coach bumps by as many as 5-10 seats before we left.

maximizing revenue is one thing...selling seats that really aren't there and literally inconveniencing passengers in hopes of 100% sold seats....just further confirms my distrust of the airlines. What was today's fiasco fairly worth ? That's the question.

Appreciate your input Seth. I'm not a horse's a** about this, and US air and CO were very polite through al of this, and clearly CO was stumped as to how the tickets were ever allowed to be sold given there was no fc seat inventory to sell, and I am safely back, but it was a real lesson in computer foul-ups, airlines' meeting my continued low expectations of them, and, IMO, greed on the part of CO in selling overbooked fc seats as proximate as a 1hr, 30min departure, to then let the "gate agent sort it out"...at the expense and inconvenience of the passengers.

That's just my layman's read on what happened today.

[This message has been edited by ILUVCITIBANK (edited 10-13-2002).]

You just hit it on the nails head. Continental offered to give 1st class to you 4 hrs later. If asking for compensation I would "omit" that part.

Being the delay was for FA rules, the compensation could be argued to 4 hrs liability which I think these days is a meal and maybe a $50 voucher. You accepted the coach seating so technically you oked the coach seat. You should still be entitled to two 1 way upgrades from coach to 1st class, so like 10k miles each. 7500k miles is fair, but I would push for 10k. it's a round # and they are more likely to give it.

welookgood,
I, too, realized once I accepted the coach seats, my leverage was weakened...but, I accepted it only after, and upon, the supervisor's explicit offer (and I didn't ask him, he literally offered) to "get in touch this coming week" to make some form of compensation offer. yes, I have his name and my spouse and the lower-level CSR witnessed his promise to contact me (FW that's worth). he made a point of saying he had my name and contact info from my GOLD status w/ CO so my sense was he was sincere and will follow through.

7500-10000 x 2 makes sense to me also.

Thanks to both of you guys for the insight.

When he contacts you I have a feeling he will talk monetary.. While you may suggest 20k miles he may be used to doing vouchers and not able to do miles. So you should decide how much 20k miles = in vouchers.... While not dif between coach and first class come to some idea in your head

If I were you, I would write to US Customer Service and simply request the difference in miles for the coach vs. first class ticket since you were, in essence, downgraded. I would expect that you would receive such a difference, at least for the one-way, plus perhaps some sort of token for the inconvenience (I would cite the delay/cancellation of the earlier flight and the hassle as well). This was not a revenue ticket, so asking for cash will likely get you turned down. You paid with miles, so your credit should be in miles. If US is nice, they'll give you the miles, plus maybe a coupon of some sort for the added hassle.

As for the oversale of F, most airlines, including CO, do not do this (you wouldn't want to bump a high-paying passenger). I've only seen it once (on CO when a 757 was downgraded to a 737 at the last minute, and they had to un-upgrade some Elites including myself ). Typically when a flight is that close to departure, an airline doing a 240 needs to call to the other airline (US --> CO in this case) and ask first if they will release the seats. I believe the rule on this is if the flight is within 4 hours of departure, which it was in your case. Just like you can't logon to a travel website and buy a ticket for a flight 2 hours before departure, another airline cannot move someone 2 hours before departure without asking first. This rule is there because within 4 hours, the flight is under airport control, and it is a known fact that the reservation system is unreliable in that timeframe. Every time I've been bumped to another carrier, the agent first picks up the phone before agreeing to rebook me. Clearly this was not done, probably because US was too busy rebooking 100 passengers. Mention that in your letter and state that had US called and learned there was no F availability, they could have selected another carrier with F availabilty.

If you want to leverage this to get something out of it, you could also write to CO and explain your dissatisfaction that you did not get into F as you were ticketed for F. You may want to concoct a story about how you live in the IAH area and travel to EWR frequently and were considering switching airlines because of CO's service and US's impending financial doom. Do NOT mention that this was an award ticket.

Regardless of whether or not you write CO Customer Service, you should contact OnePass with your ticket info and try to get the miles for your flight. The fact that this was an award ticket may have gotten lost, so you may get CO miles if you want them.

Your letter to US and a seperate one to CO shoulod request a $100 "change fee" per ticket from each of them, as that is what each respective airline would have charged you for pulling the shenanigans they did.

It looks like no one did anything intentionally wrong, but if there is no penalty for them, they won't learn to do it right.

any update?