EUA *IS* Determined by Fare Basis
 

Through various contacts at CO, I have unequivocal validation that EUA since the beginning of March *is* now being run through a fare-class gauntlet.

In other words, even if you're Platinum Elite, if a Silver Elite books a fare class higher than what you did, you will be "beaten out" (to put in the words of one contact) by that Silver.

Two questions follow:

1. Of what use is it anymore to qualify for Gold or Platinum Elite if you can be trumped by Silver, and not just on a Y fare? There is really no more meaning to being Gold or Platinum Elite.

2. Didn't anyone at CO consider that by adding the fare basis criterion for EUA, they are essentially penalizing Elites for booking early (hence having a better crack at lower fare-basis fares)?

This move is really one that flies in the face of the very customers who made CO's reputation what it is today. What a way to repay the support.

I feel like I just learned that my lover is actually a whore.

P.S. Thanks for letting us know you've made this change, CO. Did you think no one would notice?

[This message has been edited by Beef or Chicken? (edited 03-14-2002).]

Your paraphrasing of what you heard offers a completely different meaning than what you originally said.

Although I'm now open to the possibility that fare class is a factor (beyond Y vs. discount) in EUA, I refuse to believe that it is without regard for Elite level.

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daniel baker -- [email protected]
Reliable, fast, and unmoderated forums at ITYT.

Daniel, please don't start an argument over semantics. So call my Ivy League education a waste on account of my poor diction.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The de facto condition *is* that Elite level matters no more. Isn't that what "Silver trumping Platinum even on non-Y fares" effectively boils down to?

Listen, you are you are talking to a guy who has been earning Platinum Elite 3-4 times over each year, year after year for the past several years, who has an intimate experience with pre-EUA and EUA upgrade patterns. Never until the last two weeks have I been subjected to watching A/D/F inventory dwindling day after day finally down to zero, without my having received upgrades right at the very start of the 5-day window.

If someone like me could not notice something rotting in Denmark (more appropos, Houston), then we've all been every bit as deluded in thinking that CO is the land-of-milk-and-honey that those at 1600 Smith Street think it is.

Sorry to rain on your parade, Daniel, but CO is going down a path of alienating its best customers. I know you've got a lot vested in CO with your ITYT (which I peruse and admire). But try to withhold cognitive dissonance reduction, and see the situation for what it is. It affects all of us.

ROTFLMAO! I could not agree more... as you can see as I stated in a thread today, I was like 97% last year, 100% this year up until March and now 30%.

If I can get confirmation that this is happening I will have to evaluate my options for another carrier.

This would be a very, very, very serious change in the OP program. I'd wait to see if independent verification is forthcoming.

Of course, when I say "I'd wait..." I'll actually be waiting at the Admiral's Club, so it don't make no difference to me, really.

But this would be a major development, if by some chance it's true.

Suckers http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

Don't you mean "TurQeys"? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Yes. Both because it's more clever and more polite, I should have said that!

I'm skeptical. I'm Plat and my dad's Silver. He and I are were on the same flight this week. He was booked in V, I in T; my EUA came through, his didn't.

Could you please elaborate on your sources?
(Not that I don't believe you, as anecdotally this would seem to be true)

As far as I have been told, as of yesterday, they are using the fare class as a determinant *within* Elite groups...

I have yet to be informed that fare class is a determinant irrespective of Elite group... this would seem to be contrary to the whole point of separate Elite statuses...

but I am having a hard time understanding how I went from 12/12 in Jan and Feb to 3/10 in March... there sure as hell sounds like there's something to be said for this arguement...

Perhaps one of you will be kind enough to simply call the elite desk and ask them explicitly whether or not this is the case (or ask OnePass). I can't get either number to work from my student-blocked phone in Europe...

It's not you.. the number (like EUA) is broken

Calling the elite line would be useless. The only people who really know what EUA is or isn't doing are the IT people who programmed it. Next in line come the folks in marketing who worked with the IT people to implement it, then comes those folks' management who ordered its implementation. After that it's the management in reservations who were informed of how EUA worked and then comes the front line supervisors who train the reservations people.

So there is 5 degrees of separation between the people who answer the elite line and the people who know what is going on with EUA. That makes the odds that those people know what is going on approximately 0.

Sad but true.

FWIW....the PLAT phone number that's printed on the back of my new card does indeed work.

I will not name names, but suffice it to say:

1. 3x Different WE-CARE2 agents (You know, the "hang up and call until you hear want you want to hear routine." Well, after the third time, I realized I was probably NOT going to hear what I wanted to hear).

2. 2x "Elite Priority Line" (if there really is such a thing) agents.

3. 1x "Elite Priority Line" supervisor

4. 1x Regional Sales Manager. Convinced yet?

Look, though my post count may be low and my registration recent, I've been around FT for a while. I'm *not* in the mode to foment "sky is falling" or wolf-crying. Give these guys a call yourself - the only other answer you'll be assured of receiving is a, "Huh? I haven't heard nothing about not no fare-basis criterion for automated upgrades..."

As I pointed out earlier, all of the people you spoke with are not really "in the know." I have no doubt that fare basis is a criteria used in the EUA process, however I have serious doubts as to whether it is the first criteria applied. Where do I think it is applied? 1. Any person on a Y fare trumps anyone on a discounted fare, after which upgrades are processed by elite level. Otherwise, elite level is the first criteria used, followed by fare basis. Of course, we know that EUA does not always behave as it is intended, so it is possible that other things are occurring. I find it highly improbable, however, that CO has intentionally decided to completely ditch platinum, gold, silver as the primary prioritization for elite upgrades.

More likely, what we are seeing is:

1. A lot of confusion caused by a lack of reliability and transparancy in the upgrade system.
2. Customer facing personal that are un-, under-, or mis- informed about how the process works.
3. Those personnel may not be completely adept at communicating what they do know or think they know to the customer.
4. Customers who misunderstand what has been told to them by said personnel.

The fact that elite agents corroborated your story probably discredits it more than it helps your case. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Anyway, Continental has always said that fare basis was involved in EUAs -- look at the Onepass guide. If that means Y vs discount or each individual fare class, I don't know; it's certainly subject to interpretation and it depends on the context of the documentation.

The idea that a Silver Y is higher than a Platinum Q or something just doesn't make sense. It's contrary to the entire structure of the Onepass system. Even if this was the case, it wouldn't work with the documented system since a Platinum (by theory) gets his upgrade 5 days out. Why have the 5 day rule but then give a silver priority within the day? Why not just have every upgraded 5 days out? And why make an undocumented, major change without even notifying users of the enhancement that make upgrades easier? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

FWIW, the Onepass rules still say that Platinum Y > Platinum > Gold Y > Gold > Silver Y > Silver for stand-by upgrades.

Please don't take this personally -- I'm not trying to insult you and I respect your opinion and thoughts. However, I think that the idea of EUAs ranking upgrades based on fare class instead of elite level doesn't seem all that logical.

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daniel baker -- [email protected]
Reliable, fast, and unmoderated forums at ITYT.

They say denial is the first stage. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Put both of those scenarios together, and perhaps we have the real explination.

1) When there are seats in F at the 5-day window, then yes a Plat gets the upgrade, irrespective of fare basis. But, since they hold the seats in A straight thru to day of departure that is irrelevant.

2) The EUA at 3hrs seems to be based upon fare basis.

Therefore, both arguements could be correct. The OPSC will state that they have not reduced benefits, simply because they don't know what RevMgt is doing w/ the seats.

They'll say that "Plats still get the 5-day upgrades" and that the 3hr EUA is based upon fares, but that does not affect Elite status since you would have already received your upgrade in their fictional A9 F9 world.

Does that make sense? One hand not talking to the other?

I'm prolly second only to NJDavid, duxfan, and JonNYC in my anti-CO vitriole! Yet, I would think we should hold back before making a judgement that CO is going to a 100% fare-based EUA.

Someone reported that there was a meeting about EUA bugs, and Larry Kellner wanted the bugs taken out. Well, first of all, I'm anything but a Larry Kellner fan! He's the ultimate bean counter.

Nevertheless, there have been some egregious EUA screw-ups! Let's see if CO straightens them out, or if cheap ticket Plats continue to get aced out by high-rev Silvers! If so, then, speaking for myself, I'm CO history!!! Domestic upgrades are the only reason to stick with CO since they've trashed their intl. upgrade policy!

OTOH, we know CO's computers have never screwed up...right??? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif So, let's see if this crap continues!

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"Read my lips! No more benefit cuts!"...Gordon Bethune

This was the spirit with which the EUA program started. And it worked during the time seats were released to F class 5 days out. The fact that they are not doing this anymore for most flights already makes the elite status based upgrade schedule meaningless.

Where exactly does it say that explicitly? In fact the above is incorrect. For example, in the upgrade rules on co.com it says

So more than 5 days out, Gold Y trumps Plat. Inside 2 days, it is not clear if Silver Y trumps Plat, the description is ambiguous.

CO logical? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Another thing that might explain Silvers getting upgrades before Plats on the waiting list may be due to the following feature that appears to be different and complementary to the EUA

.

So if a Silver checks in before a Plat when a F seat is available (or becomes available before the Plat checks in) in the two hour window , the Silver will get the upgrade on check-in because this appears to be done whenever the seat becomes available. If the elite status based 5-3-1 day window worked (seats released to F early) then the above may not have been a factor in most days since Elites may have taken up all the seats by then. But with the FC hoarding going on, looks like everyone is going through the two-hour space-available upgrades which as some have been told is on a different waiting list than the one used for EUA. Status here matters only only for people on the waiting list. If a Silver checks in early before a Plat and a seat is available, the Silver is upgraded.

No offense but your support for the argument against stupidity on CO'a part is entrirely based on saying they can't possibly be stupid. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The old (and maybe still current) system of processing EUA was:

1) Elite Level
1A) Full fare vs. discount

2) Date of ticket purchased

Is CO replacing date of ticket purchased with fare basis code? Is it no longer relevant when you purchased your ticket?

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EWR CO Platinum

I was thinking all week of posting this, but now that it's come up.....

Something is DEFINITELY up with EUA since Mar 1. And, for once, it's to Mr Fish's benefit.. As most of you know, he is Plat, last minute, high revenue. CO has been slipping in a lot of last minute, non-restricted fares just SLIGHTLY lower than Y, and that is what he has mostly been flying on (and full Y). And, most of you know, he has had an ABYSMAL upgrade record (since EUA began, worse in 2002). Suddenly, since Mar 1, he has been EUA'd like crazy. And not at the 5 day mark.. These are coming one or two days prior. Very odd. I can't believe that status no longer matters, but there has definitely been a change...

Robin

Uh-oh, hate to say I that I saw this coming, but....

I SAW THIS COMING!!!!!!

Those of you who were not concerned when CO started restricting Int'l upgrades and other dilutions of the value of OnePass miles allowed this to happen.

When you said "I don't fly Int'l, so it doesn't matter to me", you allowed this to happen.

When you said "It's no big deal to eliminate off peak awards", you allowed this to happen.

When you said "It's okay if Gordon Lies", you allowed this to happen.

Now they've started diluting the value of what matters to YOU. Domestic upgrades are suddenly harder to get, or not processed in the manner you thought they would. Suddenly it matters, huh?

Did you really think that if CO was able to dilute the Int'l side of the program, they wouldn't try to do it to the domestic side?

Get ready for domestic HoKeY and TurQey fares, my friends. You allowed it to happen. I suggest that you all start letting CO know how unhappy you are with the system. See if you can get someone in Houston to put in WRITING what the current upgrade priority is.

And BTW, while I cannot speak for all of us who no longer fly CO domestic, I know I'll be happy to join in and support your complaints. I'll bet NYCJon and NJDavid will as well. But it's up to all of you who allowed this to happen to make it go away. Are you up to the challenge?

In the meantime, I'll be enjoying MRTC over at AA. Good luck!

Oh yeah, don't forget, today is the last day to cast your Freddie ballot!

Happy for Mr. Fish-- but this is starting to sound very ominous.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Oh yeah, don't forget, today is the last day to cast your Freddie ballot!

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I'd love to see the look on CO's face when HP gets Best FF program! Ha!

I called OnePass this morning, after about 10 minutes on hold hearing about how wonderful OnePass is and about all the awards it's won I was connected to a nice agent. I asked her if it was true that they had changed the criteria for awarding "unlimited free upgrades" to One Pass elites. I reminded her that "you know who" lied to us all about not reducing benefits to OnePass. She assured me that everything was still wonderful, and that upgrades (when available) would be awarded on the basis of Elite status, Full Y fares would be upgraded first, then it would be all other fares based on date of ticket purchase. She sounded so nice and sincere and comforting, I said that I didn't know who I can trust anymore after "you know who" said you know what.

I get so confused sometimes, you just don't know who you can trust anymore. I think I'll fly HP, they won't have much trouble meeting my expectations.

Now I have a headache after reading all this stuff and have 3 R/T's ticketed to the East Coast in the next couple of months.
It was fun flying last year to qualify for Plat on CO and Silver on NW.

Wish AA and UA didn't have such a bad 2000 summer with cancellations and such. I would have been a million miler with AA.

Thanks for all the information on CO upgrades, and deductive reasoning.

I think!?
Oh it is all so confusing. I remember when flying and miles were a lot more fun a year or two ago.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Does the computer just look at O&D or segment by segment? How can it determine who gets an upgrade if Ms. Silver buys a $600 roundtrip fare from LAX to MSP via IAH, but Mr. Plat buys a $500 one-way fare from LAX to IAH? Does it upgrade based solely on the dollar value of the entire ticket, or is it sophisticated enough to look at the total fare and further determine that in fact Mr Plat's fare is actually of greater value because it is one way and one segment?

All these questions and more are running through my mind and I'd be surprised if their EUA system is that advanced.

I could understand a Plat with an expensive fare being upgraded before a Plat with a discounted fare, but not a Silver on an expensive fare beating out a Plat on a less expensive fare.

[This message has been edited by PARSpro (edited 03-16-2002).]

No, date of ticket purchase is now trumped by fare basis. The EUA/yield management algorithm is taking into account both historical fare-basis bookings as well as current fare-basis bookings (i.e., for an upcoming flight on a given day/time). As would be expected, the release of seats into the F bucket from A/D is done on the basis of this historical booking data and current reservations. But now, wih greater stringency, EUA is releasing *only enough* inventory into F at each upgrade window (5/3/1 days prior to departure) into which only the higher fare-basis reservations will be upgraded, e.g., 6 plats on day 5, 3 of whom on K fare, 2 on Q, 1 on T. Yield management/EUA spots this, so only three seats open up in F. The three on K get the EUA; the 3 on T/Q are skipped. Day 3: Same thing, but for Gold - and the lower fare basis Plats from before (in addition to the lower fare Golds) are nixed out of the running. And so on. Of course, this is the general paradigm, so specific routes and days of the week will throw in different variables. Still, overall, the machination of EUA is different from before.

What's more, as has been mentioned previously and in other threads, the at-airport upgrade standby list doesn't work reliably anymore. I was "number one on the standby list" for upgrades on the day of travel the other day on a 5-segment itinerary, none of which were EUA'd (one segment was on a junglejet). Watched AOW classavailability (BTW, it's so much easier than ITN I find), saw the F bucket go live, went over to the P-Club desk to get my upgraded boarding pass, and you know what? The F inventory was still sitting there, my original reservation un-upgraded, and *several* club agents hoarded around to observe this new twist, chattering about how I should have been automatically upgraded, this is weird, why is inventory still holding out releasing upgrade seats as if they're going to sell an hour before the flight all of the first class seats they're holding back, this wasn't the way it used to be, somebody else could have just slipped in there and got the upgrades if I hadn't come over (*bingo* - CO's own is saying this - HELLO HOUSTON), and even, get this, "why would anyone want to fly us anymore if they couldn't get the upgrades like they were promised?"

With all due respect, folks, the "couldn't be's!" and the "hmmm, I'm skeptical, that's not what I saw," sound a lot to me like rationalization and denial of a new reality that showed up sometime recently. Can we all say, "cognitive dissonance?"

I told myself I would stick it out on CO after HOKEY I in anticipation of seeing what HOKEY II was going to be like. But this new macro under which EUA runs is the hair that breaks the camel's back for me. Definitely not the change I was anticipating.

[This message has been edited by Beef or Chicken? (edited 03-16-2002).]

Pardon my ignorance on this issue, but it is relevant to my wife's newly earned status as a Gold member, but would not your calling the O/P Elite line "fix" matters if you are skipped by the EUA?

After all, the rules booklet for the Elite flyer indicates that if a seat is un-filled, a O/P elite will be upgraded, apparently, regardless of fare basis. At least that is what I thought it said.

Moreover, I do not contend that every bad outcome can be remedied by some form of litigation, but if CO advertised, and continues to advertise, that upgrades will be provided to those in a certain category regardless of the fare tix they had purchased, and then fails to honor that commitment, it seems to me that a potential class action may be plausible, as I would think that there are a large number of those who have attained at least some Elite status.

Just my 2 cents.


My wife usually travels on full fare Y class, and therefore, she can immediately have her seat upgraded to First Class per the O/P rules.

One more thing - and this is the last I will write about the subject (been talking the talk on being fed up, going to other airlines, etc., now it's time just to walk the walk).

The new EUA penalizes loyal customers like me who are able to plan air travel weeks, sometimes months, in advance, for choosing to fly Continental and in so doing, usually are able to buy T/Q fares. As a principal of my firm, I am able to call many of the shots on what's going on, where, and when, so I have greater flexibility to plan ahead and stick to it. More on this later.

When booking relatively far in advance, there is almost always a great number of competitors from which to choose. My practice has been to just go CO, even if CO's fares are slightly higher (10% is my threshold), and even if the schedule is not as convenient (just as well, additional miles/segments).

Before recently, I was almost assured of a call-in/EUA upgrade. Made me feel good about flying CO, they kept getting my business.

Now, however, CO has taken away the incentive for me to fly them anymore at all. I would not pay anything more than the lowest fare available at the time of booking any more than CO itself would pay one its own vendors X% more for something that is listing for a given price. The carrot of a free domestic upgrade does not justify violating the principle of spending no more than the fair price offered for a service. Last time I looked, that's not what "free" meant.

I mentioned that I am a principal of my firm. Well, I've just taken CO off my company's travel list. Though one of us individually may come far short of providing the revenue that a higher-fare customer may fork over to CO, the aggregate revenue that all of my company's travel done in a year should not be overlooked. And to think that I encouraged many of my co-workers to wait it out, let's see what happens later this year... I guess to be a business owner, you have to be somewhat masochistic to begin with.

CO, you've earned yourself the loss of our business, which consists of a healthy travel budget in the high 6-digit dollar figure that actually increased last year and even after 9-11, as well as our goodwill in recommending you to our clients and vendors. To put it in the words of a colleague, you're missing the forest for its trees.

[This message has been edited by Beef or Chicken? (edited 03-16-2002).]

Seems like your wife will not have to suffer at the hands of EUA shenanigans. In any case, calling the "Elite" line would regrettably do nothing as OP agents are either unwilling or unauthorized (or both) to do upgrades manually, in stark contrast to NW where EUA co-exists (quite well in my experience) with manual intervention when appropriate.

I have been top tier on this airline since the programs began, and nobody in the East ever heard of the airline. Back then, you got free headsets and they carved your dinner at your seat. Those days are gone. The airline was run in the ground, and miraculously revived into one of the best products out there. The astute management that accomplished that also knows that in this business, yields are everything. As a marketing tool, they have floated too much elite metal. They can't possibly do what they hint is possible in their marketing, and they have obviously figured out a way to further make sure that some guy with status (and I use the word advisedly) but no yield (read, cheap ticket) doesn't put a guy with a 1500 dollar ticket in a middle seat in row 32. We don't like it, but they aren't really wrong, and I am afraid others will emulate this. I value my Platinum status, but I spend more time with other carriers who are less concerned with this kind of yield management. The real culprit is these mindless first class fares. If they would make them reasonable, as opposed to numbers that cause you to have to decide whether you should buy the ticket or use the money to build a new garage, some of us might actually pay for it. In the meantime, quit voting them the Freddie, and they might actually slow this process down a little.

Your analysis isn't consistent with my experience at all. EUA has been broken for me, regardless of fare class purchased.

Additionally, what would be the motivation to hold out seats on the day of departure? I've seen A9F0 at 1am on a 6am departure. If the system is as sophisticated as you've indicated, it would certainly be capable of giving away a few seats to Platinum and Gold T/Qs to save them from having to get to the airport early to fight the silvers for seats.

Once you're checked in, you will not be automatically upgraded by EUA or anything anymore. Either you will need to have someone manually grab a seat from F for you or wait until the GA clears the F upgrade standby list before push-back.

This has been a long-time bug that is part of the airport "free for all." This would generally be fixed by the 3h EUA system.

Posted by DBaker: (sorry quote feature wouldn't pull this part of quote)..
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Your analysis isn't consistent with my experience at all. EUA has been broken for me, regardless of fare class purchased.
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DBaker,

I am curious about your purchase habits. Are you generally an early or late purchaser, and on what fares? Have you noticed any difference with flights after about Mar.1?? Mr Fish was constantly trumped on EUA on his high, last minute fares by earlier booking Plats on lower fares (less than 40% success in 2001 and early 2002). Suddenly, he is being EUA'd left and right. Received another EUA yesterday (at Gold window), now running 100%.. (His CO flights in the last week or so are minimal, so this could just be a coincidence). But I am convinced that something has changed recently.

I still cannot believe that, even if just enough F are released at the Plat window for high-fare Plats, the remaining Plats wouldn't be first in line at te Gold window. It would be very interesting if a low-fare Plat and a high-fare Gold on this board were booked on the same flight. I would love to see how it unfolded in that case...

Robin

This is something CO needs to explain but my guess is that they do not want to lose any last minute revenue walk-ins, standbys, transfers from cancelled or delayed flights, etc., that have either paid FC or paid a higher fare in Y. They stand to lose more if high fare payers get frustrated without upgrades than low fare payers (the "riff-raff") do.

If you wanted to encourage everyone including Silvers to pay higher fares to get an upgrade, you wowuld reward Silver high fares with the upgrade over Plat and Gold "riff-raff".

The above is perfectly consistent with yield management. Would you rather lose business from people that historically pay low fares or lose business from those that pay high fares?

What is not clear is if this change is happening (there appears to be some anecdotal evidence for this), are they going to handle it by an explicit policy change or continue to market "smoke and mirrors" hoping that they will not lose either of the above two groups? I am not sure they anticipated the ITN use to monitor them. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Beef or Chicken, I certainly hope that you gave CO written notification of your decision to take them off of your travel list.

Zip, I most assuredly have, through conversation, writing, and telephone calls. I do have the feeling, though, that pretty soon I will have some CO reps getting back in touch with all sorts of enticements. In the state of mind I am now, I can already hear myself telling them, "Nothing personal against you, but you tell whoever told you to bring this to stick it in a place where it might be of some use."

We stuck it out with CO through thick and thin, and now that times are good for them they seem to be forgetting those very customers who were instrumental in helping them to get to today. So screw me for running a business that emphasizes frugality and practicality, so much so that we grow when the rest of the economy shrinks, we thrive even after catastrophe strikes, and we give raises and merit bonuses when employess at other companies are getting laid off. F*ck you very much, CO.

That being said, I'm not denigrating CO for making a business decision. We all do this every day. But the way their business decision impacts my co-workers and me require me to make a business decision of my own. Isn't life grand?

I do hope and encourage those of you who are getting shafted to reciprocate CO's "looking out for #1" by taking action and switching your allegiance. Talk is cheap. Actions count.

[This message has been edited by Beef or Chicken? (edited 03-16-2002).]