Ethics Question
#16
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Honolulu Harbor
Programs: UA 2MM 1K
Posts: 16,589
MikeMpls - WRONG
"An FF account is your personal account with an airline. Your employer is no more entitled to access that account than to use your personal credit cards."
You'd like to believe that, but you are flat out wrong. Miles earned on company paid travel CAN be claimed by the company. Fortunately, the hassle of doing so (and actually using the miles with all the restrictions and seat availabilty), makes it fairly rare"
"II MYTH
Corporations have no right to reclaim the frequent travel program awards earned by their employees.
TRUTH
Corporations have every legal right to attempt to reclaim awards you’ve earned while traveling on business.
Since frequent travel programs are first and foremost a way for airlines and hotels to ensure personal loyalty – regardless of who’s footing the travel bills – the plans go out of their way to keep corporations out of the equation the rules of most programs explicitly prohibit corporate membership, issuing awards only in the name of an individual traveler.
Unfortunately, just because airline and hotels don’t want corporations involved doesn’t mean employers don’t have the legal right to try to reclaim their employees’ awards. In a case decided by the Supreme Court of New York, corporate claims on frequent travel awards were ruled valid in cases where a company paid for and directed the travel of an individual employee on company business.
In other words, if your company insists that you turn over the awards, you can’t just ignore the request.
In practice, however, the number of companies successfully reclaiming frequent travel awards from their employees is extraordinarily low. Most have found the process of tracking miles and monitoring awards cumbersome to manage and nearly impossible to police."
From InsideFlyer
You'd like to believe that, but you are flat out wrong. Miles earned on company paid travel CAN be claimed by the company. Fortunately, the hassle of doing so (and actually using the miles with all the restrictions and seat availabilty), makes it fairly rare"
"II MYTH
Corporations have no right to reclaim the frequent travel program awards earned by their employees.
TRUTH
Corporations have every legal right to attempt to reclaim awards you’ve earned while traveling on business.
Since frequent travel programs are first and foremost a way for airlines and hotels to ensure personal loyalty – regardless of who’s footing the travel bills – the plans go out of their way to keep corporations out of the equation the rules of most programs explicitly prohibit corporate membership, issuing awards only in the name of an individual traveler.
Unfortunately, just because airline and hotels don’t want corporations involved doesn’t mean employers don’t have the legal right to try to reclaim their employees’ awards. In a case decided by the Supreme Court of New York, corporate claims on frequent travel awards were ruled valid in cases where a company paid for and directed the travel of an individual employee on company business.
In other words, if your company insists that you turn over the awards, you can’t just ignore the request.
In practice, however, the number of companies successfully reclaiming frequent travel awards from their employees is extraordinarily low. Most have found the process of tracking miles and monitoring awards cumbersome to manage and nearly impossible to police."
From InsideFlyer
Last edited by IAH-OIL-TRASH; Apr 9, 2010 at 6:05 am Reason: punctuation
#17




Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: CO hublette
Programs: UA AU MM,HH Diamond,Hyatt Globalist , Marriott Gold
Posts: 2,316
If you have to ask a question on ethics, you really already know the answer.
Sure, if your company has a policy letting you do such things it is fine, but then you don't need to ask.
Sure, if your company has a policy letting you do such things it is fine, but then you don't need to ask.
#18
Join Date: Mar 2008
Programs: UA
Posts: 370
If you intend to deceive, then, yes, I'd call that unethical.
If your intention is honest, then the act is not unethical (at least in my book).
If your intention is honest, then the act is not unethical (at least in my book).
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Between AUS, EWR, and YTO In a little twisty maze of airline seats, all alike.. but I wanna go home with the armadillo
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Posts: 38,687
+1 I once worked for a company that was very happy to reimburse me a percentage and let me use miles for some of my travel.
#20
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: UA SP, DL SM MM, AS 75K, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Diamond.
Posts: 2,596
I'd never take an employees miles. My feelings on that are that the employee is traveling for me, leaving thier home, maybe family to travel for me. I don't pay for 100% of their time when they are gone (not aware of any company that does). So, it's the least I can do for their sacrifice to travel, it costs me nothing, and takes some of the sting out of being on the road.
But, some corporations do indeed keep employees miles and then pool them on expensive routes for rewards. I've also flown next to people who's company never pays for tickets, with the corporate credit card spending they always travel on reward tickets (which sucks for them, no mileage accrual).
But, some corporations do indeed keep employees miles and then pool them on expensive routes for rewards. I've also flown next to people who's company never pays for tickets, with the corporate credit card spending they always travel on reward tickets (which sucks for them, no mileage accrual).
#21
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: TX
Programs: UA mm, Marriott PLT, Hilton Dia
Posts: 580
The IRS has an opinion about the properly documented actual expense (yes, your company will be deducting this). May be hard to catch unless someone turns you in, but how do you look in stripes?
#22
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend




Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
As a former Sr. VP with one of the 5 best known brands in in the world, we always had a policy of flying employees at all levels in business class and first class.
I fired three Managers for buying refundable business class tickets, submitting those tickets for reimbursement, but having them refunded and replaced with discounted Y tickets without the company's knowledge. Each employee was netting about $8,000 per ticket, repeatedly.
I fired three Managers for buying refundable business class tickets, submitting those tickets for reimbursement, but having them refunded and replaced with discounted Y tickets without the company's knowledge. Each employee was netting about $8,000 per ticket, repeatedly.
#23




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Miami
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium, AA EXP and others
Posts: 4,749
There is no question about this. The existence of the question demonstrates that the action is unethical, not to mention that it creates an income tax liability for the OP and creates an audit exception for the company because they'll have an expense without supporting documents, given that the IRS non-receipt limit remains $75.
If the company approves it, doing it just makes the payment to the OP additional income, declarable on a 1099, or added to the W2. For the company it then will be salary expense, ie a bonus.
If the company approves it, doing it just makes the payment to the OP additional income, declarable on a 1099, or added to the W2. For the company it then will be salary expense, ie a bonus.
#24
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Baton Rouge
Programs: Delta,United 1K, SPG Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz #1 Gold, Avis Preferred
Posts: 214
As an employee of a Big 3 Consulting firm this is a no-go situation. Without proof of a paid expense there is no reimbursement.
smaller company I worked for actually encouraged the use of FF miles for travel in order to pad project margins - now who was unethical in that scenario?
smaller company I worked for actually encouraged the use of FF miles for travel in order to pad project margins - now who was unethical in that scenario?
#25


Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CLE
Programs: UA,WN,AA,DL, B6
Posts: 4,359
First you have to be up front with your company. Some will work with you and perhaps and give you partial reinburcement since you could be using the miles per a personel trip so that is still money out of your pocket.
#26


Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: DCA
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium, United Silver
Posts: 590
As an employee of a Big 3 Consulting firm this is a no-go situation. Without proof of a paid expense there is no reimbursement.
smaller company I worked for actually encouraged the use of FF miles for travel in order to pad project margins - now who was unethical in that scenario?
smaller company I worked for actually encouraged the use of FF miles for travel in order to pad project margins - now who was unethical in that scenario?
#27
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: DL GM
Posts: 355
If you feel the need to ask the question then you obviously have some ethical concerns to begin with...congratulations, you've already answered your own question.
If you ask your employer and they agree, then it is fine (make sure to get it in writing/email), because keep in mind you won't have a receipt showing the dollar value. Plus for tax purposes the cash reimbursed to you for a non-cash expense may be taxable.
If you ask your employer and they agree, then it is fine (make sure to get it in writing/email), because keep in mind you won't have a receipt showing the dollar value. Plus for tax purposes the cash reimbursed to you for a non-cash expense may be taxable.
#28
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: UA SP, DL SM MM, AS 75K, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Diamond.
Posts: 2,596
Just how unethical would it be to use your miles to get a ticket for free, and then submit an expense report to your employer for the published price of the ticket? Not that I would actually do it, but it is very tempting when I could use 25K miles for a ticket worth $1400 on a business trip vs the alternative of using 50K miles for a $400 ticket for vacation. It wouldn't hurt anyone would it?
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posts: 35,092
I don't think I agree with this. There are varying degrees of ethics, and they can be invoked selectively and circumstantially.
This whole country works like that -- where businesses and consumers both try to push the envelope. E.g., what can a company get away with, without getting the attention of regulators? It somewhat fosters a consumer culture of trying to get away with things as well.
The "right thing to do" becomes very blurred in an adversarial system such as this. And it's not fair to expect one party to always play by the highest moral standards if the other party isn't going to play by the same rules as well.
So the way I see it, if the employer is fair and treats people well, they deserve the respect of being asked before doing it. If not, well, then it's up to you.
This whole country works like that -- where businesses and consumers both try to push the envelope. E.g., what can a company get away with, without getting the attention of regulators? It somewhat fosters a consumer culture of trying to get away with things as well.
The "right thing to do" becomes very blurred in an adversarial system such as this. And it's not fair to expect one party to always play by the highest moral standards if the other party isn't going to play by the same rules as well.
So the way I see it, if the employer is fair and treats people well, they deserve the respect of being asked before doing it. If not, well, then it's up to you.
#30
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: Fallen Plats, ex-WN CP, DYKWIW; still PAL Premier Elite & Hilton Diamond
Posts: 25,429
"An FF account is your personal account with an airline. Your employer is no more entitled to access that account than to use your personal credit cards."
You'd like to believe that, but you are flat out wrong. Miles earned on company paid travel CAN be claimed by the company. Fortunately, the hassle of doing so (and actually using the miles with all the restrictions and seat availabilty), makes it fairly rare"
"II MYTH
Corporations have no right to reclaim the frequent travel program awards earned by their employees.
TRUTH
Corporations have every legal right to attempt to reclaim awards you’ve earned while traveling on business.
Since frequent travel programs are first and foremost a way for airlines and hotels to ensure personal loyalty – regardless of who’s footing the travel bills – the plans go out of their way to keep corporations out of the equation the rules of most programs explicitly prohibit corporate membership, issuing awards only in the name of an individual traveler.
Unfortunately, just because airline and hotels don’t want corporations involved doesn’t mean employers don’t have the legal right to try to reclaim their employees’ awards. In a case decided by the Supreme Court of New York, corporate claims on frequent travel awards were ruled valid in cases where a company paid for and directed the travel of an individual employee on company business.
In other words, if your company insists that you turn over the awards, you can’t just ignore the request.
In practice, however, the number of companies successfully reclaiming frequent travel awards from their employees is extraordinarily low. Most have found the process of tracking miles and monitoring awards cumbersome to manage and nearly impossible to police."
From InsideFlyer
You'd like to believe that, but you are flat out wrong. Miles earned on company paid travel CAN be claimed by the company. Fortunately, the hassle of doing so (and actually using the miles with all the restrictions and seat availabilty), makes it fairly rare"
"II MYTH
Corporations have no right to reclaim the frequent travel program awards earned by their employees.
TRUTH
Corporations have every legal right to attempt to reclaim awards you’ve earned while traveling on business.
Since frequent travel programs are first and foremost a way for airlines and hotels to ensure personal loyalty – regardless of who’s footing the travel bills – the plans go out of their way to keep corporations out of the equation the rules of most programs explicitly prohibit corporate membership, issuing awards only in the name of an individual traveler.
Unfortunately, just because airline and hotels don’t want corporations involved doesn’t mean employers don’t have the legal right to try to reclaim their employees’ awards. In a case decided by the Supreme Court of New York, corporate claims on frequent travel awards were ruled valid in cases where a company paid for and directed the travel of an individual employee on company business.
In other words, if your company insists that you turn over the awards, you can’t just ignore the request.
In practice, however, the number of companies successfully reclaiming frequent travel awards from their employees is extraordinarily low. Most have found the process of tracking miles and monitoring awards cumbersome to manage and nearly impossible to police."
From InsideFlyer
) for international business class in sectors where business class is allowed.
Last edited by MikeMpls; Apr 9, 2010 at 12:34 pm

