No you won't ;):D You are simply too good at it!!!!

Definitely, of the two other IBBs I frequent.

With the unique exception of the gaylas, I think skye1 hit the nail. FT is almost 10 years old and has more members than ever, it's a natural evolution to have different events that target different segments of the audience. I'm confident that Randy, the MOD's and his team are on the pulse enough to make sure that no matter how things diversify, the values of FT and our common bond of travel will remain the thread that ties it all together.

What I'm shocked to hear is the awful manners and behavior that attendees have shown to the organizers. It's sad that those who can calculate EQM and cost-per point with their eyes closed can't pay their fare share for a dinner! Folks who can drop everything for a MR can't adheare to a reservation deadline, etc. I wish there could be an eBay style "feedback" system for members. I'm guessing the deadbeats, unreasonable requests and complaints would come to a quick end with such a system.

^^

I was asked about those. Not having been to one, I speculate they'd "fit" into under one or more categories, and I'm not sure I'd see a "need" to call some events gaylas and other events "Do's", but rather something based on size/scope of the event. I would think a "Do" organized by the GLBT forum would be a little self-eplanatory in terms of its "target" attendees, and from what I've seen, those are also open to all. I could be wrong, and if an "edit" is needed, I'll gladly give it a go.

I think one "system" for that lies in the references across this thread to the social networking that goes on off-board, and who/who does not find their way to such things. Certainly NOT meant to be high-school-clique-style exclusive, it's just a socially-mature recognition of any person's prerogative to pursue friendships with people they get along with...and not so much with people they don't. These are not "in crowd/out crowd" divisions as some perceive them to be, as there truly could not be one of either in a community of this size.....just the freedom people exercise (or give up) and the initiative (or lack therof) with their own, personal, social endeavors.

As a UK Do organiser, I am slightly bemused by the need to call some things gaylas and some things dos. We just call everything a do over here, and play by ear how gay or straight or neutral it is going to be on the night, post the first venue - has made for some interesting nights :D

Not a criticism, just another highlight of how things change around the world, and although there are some general rules, there are always exceptions!

From the bowels of Clapham to sticky 5 floor venues in Edinburgh, from the karaoke in Soho to the basement of the Polo lounge in Glasgow, to describe it all as just "interesting" would be a bit of an understatement! :D ;)

If my understanding is correct, a "Gayla" is a meet which was first discussed on the GLTB Forum and may have a number of gay-oriented activities.

In a sense, this is no different than the first and second annual PBI-FLL meets, which were discussed on the Delta Forum, and known as the "Great Delta Forum Meet" before being brought over to Community Buzz.

In both instances, the meets are open to all FTers, regardless of their sexual and/or airline orientations.

Whether straights should be invited to Gaylas was a matter of some contention on the GLTB Forum in 2004 but this post by Randy Petersen put that issue to rest.

Yes I understood that, thank you Dovster. My point was that we manage to have Dos in London which have a number of 'gay orientated activities' but which are not called gaylas. It's generally understood by the locals that London Dos will be gay friendly - to the point where we've had to reassure the straights that they are welcome also on the odd occasion :)

Frankly, if someone decided to host a gayla in London, I would consider it a reflection that it was considered that my dos weren't gay friendly enough. Given, as AJLondon indicated, the various gay pubs, clubs and bars we've visited (or tried to visit - we queued for Heaven once, but Heaven wouldn't let us in :( ;)) in the course of UK dos (dear god, the Leeds Do karaoke! :eek: ) it is slightly hard to see how they could be anymore gay friendly, without involving scantily clad, fit young men... now there's an idea :D

As such, I do find the names, at least in a UK context, divisive. OTOH, I understand that not all dos may have the UK 'we'll try anything once so long as there is alcohol still being served' approach that attendees tend to have, perhaps we have a unique situation on this?

The DOs that we have organized have been either one of two types: A. Those where everybody paid as they went, including at a couple of fairly large dinners; or, B. Those where we had intended to pay for everything from the beginning. To the best of my knowledge, both types worked perfectly, although there may have been some minor issues at individual tables in the pay-as-you-go situations, that never came to my attention.

I have, however, attended numerous DOs where the organizers came up short and, as a result, the organizer or other responsible attendees have had to pitch in to cover the shortage. As a result of these experiences, I would strongly advise any DO organizer who is faced with a cover charge at a restaurant or on a tour bus, to insist on full payment from all attendees prior to the event, unless you really don't mind picking up a shortage.

Missy is absolutely spot on that the only way to organize DOs successfully is as a benevolent dictator--"This is what I have planned and this is how much it costs. If you want to come and enjoy, you are welcome. If you don't like my plan, stay home, and make a plan of your own."

Sure, there are attendees who will moan and complain about one thing or another, but that is their problem. The only time that an attendee has any reason or right to complain is if the the organizer blatantly misrepresents the offer. For example, publishing that an activity will cost $20 per person and then, after you have participated, requiring a payment of $60 per person. That has also happened, and it is just so not cool.

I will admit that we were much more Pollyannish in our early FlyerTalk days, treating everyone we met on FT like someone who would become a wonderful good friend. We got burned a few of times by folks whom we had treated with completely open honesty and hospitality, but that's ok. We have also found a few princes and princesses, and we are old enough to know that kissing a few frogs before you find a prince, is still a good investment. ;)

IMO, the best antidote to wanting to retire from organizing these things is to team up. When the work is spread around between 3-4 FTers, it makes it all easier. Another tip is to have the organizing group make decisions.... just use common sense. If one of the other doesnt understand or want to go along, then thats fine... but those at the helm need to make things happen and sometimes simplicity needs to be first. Just my 2 cents.

I haven't read most of this thread.

But the one thing that would turn me off is over costs. Not on this site but another I have gotten stuck with some bills. And at other times felt like I've stuck others a bit.

I think the one thing people attending these things is that if you pay a little more than your exact meal its the cost of being in the group. At the same time we as organizers do try to come up with fair ways of doing things.

Oh, And no shows.... That after too many times can make us wonder why we do it. I know. I've been on both sides of that too.

:eek: :eek: :eek: I cannot believe some of the things I'm reading. Going to dinner and not paying? Quite honestly, it is unimaginable that someone would do that.

I had to cancel from a dinner I was schedule to attend and had already prepaid... in a million years I didn't expect nor ask for a refund, nor would I ever. I got one anyway and it was a total surprise.

IMHO, DO organizers shouldn't have to shell out a single penny for themselves at a DO they organize. Like group events held at hotels, they should be comped for all the work they have done.

Not sure if your comments were towards my post or not Mary.
But I am not for the organizers being comp'd unless the members there at the time decide to do it. I think they too should pay their own way. But to be "on the hook" to a restaurant or whereever that requires reservations and a large group holding half the tables in a place can be quite straining on the odds of that restaurant allowing your group back again.

And the other point about seperate checks not being acceptable with a large group.

I do think you have the right attitude towards a prepaid anything. It was very nice of them to get you a refund and I'm always glad to do that for people. But some events have set costs that do not change with who shows up.

Good post.

After hosting five events, I've never once come up short (once, we came up long, but that's another story ;) ). All my events have been prixe-fixe, the price posted up front, and one of the attendees appointed to act as muscle for collection. Zero problems.

My biggest event had about 55 in attendance and it was a great time. It would be a shame to spend a whole weekend worrying about somone you don't like - I hardly have time for the people I love! And despite being nervous about all sorts of weirdos and losers showing up, each time has been above all an opportunity to get to know great people and with one exception, completely drama-free.

In the end, these things are much more work than most people realize. And the bigger they are, the less fun they are for the host, because we spend all our time organizing/explaining/translating and don't really get to spend as much time with our out-of-town guests as we'd like. So I haven't "retired" from organizing. I just prefer to host smaller get-togethers that I get to enjoy as well.

Jenbel - I think that there is a bit of cultural difference between the UK and the US - in the UK, being GLBT is more of a non-issue than in the US (and I'm speaking of in general society than our FT members here) - that's the biggest reason why many in the GLBT forum in the US want to have gaylas rather than call it a general Do.

That seems to be my impression as well.

However, if you are "speaking of in general society than our FT members here", then surely the justification for a gayla label is reduced as the event will be attended by the same said FT members and not by the general society...

No edit needed. As Peter and AJLondon pointed out, they are all interchangable. Of course there will always be times when certain sub-groups of FT will want to have Do's/meets/gatherings and GLBT ones are no different.

Sorry, I didn't intend to revive that discussion.

Excellent point, the "need" for gaylas seems to be unique to the USA. (Insert OT political comment here)

I thought it might be something like that, but nice to get confirmation :)

So long as none of the GLBT board is put off from attending overseas dos because they aren't gaylas ;) :D

But the "want" for a "gayla" then arises from the US GLBT FTers wanting it to be "clearer" that the event is more for the GLBT people (obviously with some friendly "regular" people in attendance) than for the GLBT FTers attending a general event where the GLBT FTers may be in a usual minority.

Jen - Don't worry that US GLBT FTers won't attend an Int'l Do - there were plenty of us at the London Mega-Do. I think its actually the other way around, there has been a few proposals for Int'l gaylas that have not been successful.

Anyone who does not want to organise these things only needs to not offer to do them. Simple as that. ;)

The ones I've been involved with created a great deal of work, and were all akin to herding cats as some others have commented, but as far as I know have been fun for all attending.

As to the dozens of doos I've attended around the globe, the three annual events Bernie organised in Düsseldorf all ran to incredible Germanic precision and were all superb affairs. ^

Sigh - we miss Bernie & his Dus Dos! Tours of castles, private boat rides, private concerts, etc, dinners at the top of the tower, etc.

The first MegaDos before London AFAIK were by Bernie, and total clockwork (in addition to trust; he paid up front & we all paid him, but even he had issues w/ getting folk to commit so he'd know what the final charge in advance was. 125E BTW for all weekend events).

But back to the topic, I've been to MegaDo, big dos, small dos, get togethers, & quick airport layovers. All are great for a variety of reasons.

The only thing that would get me to retire is when it becomes more trouble than it's worth/fun.

Cheers.

You are absolutely right, Ozstamps.

Those DOs that Bernie used to put together were among the very best I have ever attended. I wasn't quite sure how to deal with all of that ALT at 10:00 am at the courthouse, but I guess that is a very FT thing. :D :D

WOW, have we ever had a lot of fun at FT parties around the world. Aren't we lucky! ^

We are working at making your Tasmania DO next year, if we possibly can. Everybody needs to go to Tasmania. :)

I think this says it best. We are quite lucky to have all these parties around the world and to meet so many people worth meeting.

Its one of the things that makes my life so much better.

Agreed. I think all the comments so far about all the dorks that can get themselves across the planet but won't pay for their bill or who play major roles in companies yet whine about the arrangements some one else is working hard on--all, sadly, true. :(

BUT, so are the comments like this about all the fantastic times to be had by those who can put with the above and enjoy it for what it is. ^

I've met some FTers that, quite frankly, remind me of the job security I can take comfort in having if I keep my therapist certification current :D :D

And, i've met some FTers I regard as great friends, consider myself blessed to have met, and am glad to have done so in so many cool places around the planet. It's why my signature is what it is.

Skye1... didn't knwo you kept your therapist license current. I may have to call you on that if I ever plan a CMD4.

FYI: Should I do a Catman do I would EXPECT You at least at an attendee. Since the SOupe Do is NOT CMD4. (Although you are welcome to join us)

These Soup DOs are, at least, easy to plan:

*Pick a date.
*Pick Da Place
*Wait for FT-ers to confirm.

I would also attend an STL DO if ever put together. Note this well. Only thing stopping me would be 20 or more Cat clients that weekend.

Give it a shot STl folk and if you need advise I'm happy to help out.

I'm sure you'd be gladly taken up on that. So far, our "strategy" (whether planned or it's just happened that way) has been to build up a good network of local FTers first, and Sonora, GregL, AviationKiwi, Rosso, Scoow, & others are uber-huge-ly to thank for that. And, I think we've done well at gathering the troops whenever an FTer is in town and wants to meet up with other FTers....we'll gladly all get together & join them.

So far, most of us have spent no small number of weekends this past year with all of our own individual flying...especially since several have caught the EXP and or Plat bug and have been mileage-running & segment running. How much do you ask? If it's any indication, the bartenders at the STL A/C know all of us by name, and can even tell us about where we've gone on our trips, they've gotten to know us that well. .

With a solid network of locals in place, "Do" planning is on the horizon. We've got it in our sights, and I'm sure a "Loo Do" will be coming to a C-Buzz forum near you in the future...possibly in conjunction w/ a Cardinals game, possibly in conjunction with The Great Forest Park Balloon Race, possibly just to give everyone an excuse to try Ted Drewes.

Sadly, the majority of FTers are a well-meaning lot, and will not take the proper steps necessary to rectify such situations. Which is to make them public.

Simply put: if I organized an FT event, and somebody stiffed me or made a dramatic horse's rear of themselves about issues such as posted financial arrangements or not getting their way about something ridiculous, I would post it publically on the recap of the event in the thread.

While Randy has set the policy that all Community-posted events are open to all, I suspect that he did not intend for that policy to shield people from trying to scam the membership.

Those of you who host events, encounter situations such as on the previous pages, and do not say anything in public.... you're enabling these creatures. While this is probably not the time to retroactively call out people (especially if it turns out to be a small set of repeat offenders who would then spend the next five pages on their high horses pretending to defend themselves....), I would encourage all organizers of large events to be clear about their intentions to publicize such nonsense.

If nothing else, most of us can usually use a good laugh during the work day.

I know this thread has generated a lot of offline conversations (and yes good laughs) and ElmhurstNick is right, no one wants to go public about the offender(s) and be accused of personal attacks. From what I gather, one of the serial offenders has even posted advice on dealing with offenders in this thread, so they likely have no idea just how rude & tacky they are.

I'm not sure why someone doesn't just settle it via PM then? It seems counterproductive to keep talking about it in public.

That being said, I can only admire those that take on the organization of these huge DO's. I've had a great time at a few of them and am in awe at how smoothly a lot of these events usually go. It would certainly be sad to see the people with the guts to put together these events retire or otherwise stop due to the actions of a few.

We've taken steps to immortalize this outstanding post from skye1.

It can now be found in the The Definitive CommunityBuzz! Thread Directory which is a sticky in the CommunityBuzz! Forum.


It was added to an already existing thread link that described what a DO was all about. You can access this post from skye1 by clicking on the "here" link above.

A couple of things...

No one takes on the responsibilities of organizing a Do (whether large or small), thinking they might get stiffed on bills, or really thinking they'll get too many whiners. And presumably no one attends a Do thinking they'll stiff the organizer. Hopefully not anyway! Well, the whining - who knows on that one, although it's easy to do when one isn't the organizer, but one would hope there wouldn't be too much.

I think the Current Do organizers get more savvy & post upfront the parameters as Dos go on (I know I have), and I would encourage those who are considering organizing Dos to do the same. And remind everyone of the parameters, even if it's as simple as don't forget tax & tip. That one I think needs to be hit on the head a # of times.

But the do you publicly 'out' those who stiffed do organizers or not is an interesting question. I know of one thread where it was done, but not too many others.

And also along that line, if someone has flat out stiffed another person or organizer, or if they committed to attend an event where a nominal fee was being required to attend & then didn't show, but the organizer had to shell out some $$ - should they actually be allowed to attend a Do an organizer is organizing until they paid up for the last one?

At last year's LHR MegaDo I had a hotel ressie for the stay, but someone else had a cheaper rate for a dif hotel on the last night & I agree to take it over to save some $$. But then I got a call from another FTer who needed a room, and I agreed to stick w/ mine & let them have it w/ the understanding - up front - that they owed the fee to the original person (it had been a prepaid stay). I even walked over from my hotel to that one to check them in. They agreed & then never paid the person, despite repeated PMs. The original FTer asked me to pay up since the original agreement was w/ me, so I paid him the hotel fee & then called/PMed the person who first did 'the check is in the mail' thing (obviously a lie) and then just quit responding. So I'm out the $$ for someone else's hotel stay.

Let's say I organize another Do. Should that LHR MegaDo person be allowed to attend w/o paying me the amount they stiffed me? After all, FT's policy is open to all. And what if they're attending a Do that someone else is organizing? How do I say don't let them attend/they stiffed me, given it's not my Do. BTW - I'm deliberately not putting the FTers name here, but it's an example.

How does stuff like this get handled? Thoughts, or any policies to be aware of?

Or, when I organized the LAX Day After Freddies events, culminating in a party at my place & where I ordered food/booze based on the # of attendees, it had been agreed in advance we'd all toss in "X" $$ (I figured out the bill & divied it by # of folk who had rsvp'd to come up w/ the X). A # didn't show & the ones who did tossed in their original x (and some did a bit extra), but I was out $$ due to the no-shows. If I did that event again, if the folk who were no-shows (and didn't even post on the thread no-shows) do I say pay up from last time in order to attend or do I out them on a thread?

My inclination is no and I'm chalking it up as a learning experience - but in the future - should the policy be if you rsvp for something that the host has to front $$ on (whether food for a party, or tickets to an event, or a deposit on a venue), it's understood that you owe the $$ anyway as a good FTer even if you don't show?

And it should go w/o saying, but one that seems to crop up a lot, folk - don't forget tax & tip/service charge (ie, figure out your subtotal & then add T/T). And don't get mad/throw a fit if YOUR mileage-earning cc can't be used. If you're talking large groups, most places are not going to allow that many cc's & the unofficial policy is to let the FT host put it on theirs (unless they cede that bennie to others) for the trouble of organizing the thing. One other suggestion - even if you've tossed in 'your share', don't leave until the organizer is sure the bill is square. It's just common courtesy. I know I've gotten stuck w/ bills (at London exchange rates too) where folk left their share & then left the restaurant, and we came up short but because folk had gone didn't really know who had shorted the bill. I've also seen that happen domestically at other people's dos.

So the outing & how to handle stiffers are interesting questions. Other's thoughts?

BTW - glad the 4 Do descriptions have been made into a sticky.

Cheers.

One positive thing should be said on the subject of those who short-change the host. IME there are generally one or a few generous Flyertalkers who pitch in extra to make up for those who didn't.

Agree. I was just thinking of editing my post above to mention that, as there have been times when other generous FTers have tossed in to either make up the difference, or help make up part of the difference.

BTW - in dinner situations it's usually a tad harder to figure out who 'shorted' when there are a lot of attendees & they've left, so no 'outing' or 'banning' there.

But would be interesting to get people's thoughts on the outing or allowing to attend events when the specific people are known. And yes I know who all the folk are in my 2 examples above, but I'm not going to out them now. It's to set up the examples & ask for other's thoughts or knowledge of policies (if any).

Cheers.

In one case, I had two FTers who I had to restrain from over-making-up the difference and leaving a tip nearly as big as the bill.

There's a little bit of everything on FT. :)

The tip thing is quite interesting to me as well. It seems somewhat of a grey/gray area where there can be significant cultural differences as well.

What if some attendees want the tip to be atleast 20% while others think that 10% is more than enough? And isn't it an issue for the organiser to then have to force-choose one of the two options and then, perhaps incorrectly, get perceived as either too stingy or over-generous?

I have to say that this is probably the best thread I have ever read on FT - perhaps because it is close to home. Been through the highs and lows. Had the strops thrown at me. Even got stiffed. Also, had other FTers make up the difference without prompting. Paid my way as Doo organiser. Hardly paid for a beer, mind you. :cool: Made some amazing friends. Been to some cool places. Done my bit for the community and the community has paid me back more that I could have hoped for.

At other Doos, I've seen the same take place. Watched the politics. Watched others avoid the politics. Watched still others oblivious to the politics. In fact, reading through this thread it is clear that some of the cracks in other Doos are still quite raw for some people. Equally clear is that misunderstandings can happen easily - both at Doos, and in discussing them.

Just ordinary life, eh?

All boils down to respect and dignity, for me. Keep the first for others and you'll keep the second for yourself. People sense this in others and are attracted to it. Be an @$$h0le and guess what...

Quite agree w/ GoldCircle above, but didn't want to do the full quote thing.

BTW - I probably wouldn't have mentioned the 2 examples in detail a few posts above (alluded to them in an earlier post w/o details, as part of the bad part of the good & the bad), but the previous posts by others re: 'outing' the folk who short-change or stiffed the group and/or organizer got me thinking about the various circumstances in general & what do you do for future ones. I know what I'll do in future in situations like that, but for everyone else...

Do you:

a) out them (hadn't occurred to me before & probably not something I'd do publicly), or
b) do you say pay up before they can attend another (and does FT policy even allow that, or would it given the circumstances), or
c) do you set up a prepay rule?

For me I've enjoyed all the Dos I've attended and/or organized, good & even those w/ hiccups, and when somewhat unfortunate things like stiffing or inadvertent stiffing come up I just use them as an opportunity to learn to make the future ones better.

And sometimes you just have to learn how to shrug it off anyway.

Had a group of 36 in LON one time, and (learning from the previous year when everyone passed the bill from one to the other & we came up 100GBP short, which I covered) made arrangements w/ the restaurant & the FTers to do the bills for groups of 4, figuring a foursome could easily sort out a bill - and even got the restaurant to agree to do individual cc's!

Skye1, alanw, & fredmartens & I were the 4-some at the end of the table, & we ended up ordering an extra bottle of wine to drink whilst the various other 4-somes sorted out their bills, as it was taking a while (we sorted out ours in about 30 seconds - it was called divide by 4 LOL). I wandered down the long table to see how things were going & found one 4-some arguing over who had the veggies/should pay for them!!!! :eek:

At that point you just have to say, ya' know I set it up as best I could, good luck, and go back & finish your drink ;) :D

Cheers.

People "forgetting" to pay... it happened at the CMD2 and several friends had to pitch in to make up the difference.

Lesson learned... at the CMD3... ALL ATTENDEES had to pay in advance either by check or PayPal. Basically it was Pay or No Play. Everything worked out great and I got a ton of Diners Club points to book. I thank a certain Flyertalker who stepped in and guided me not to repeat past mistakes.

So if it's going to be a big event.. .prepay is the way.

At my Soup Dos if someoen doesn't pay they will be guided by the manager to wash a LOT of soup bowls. ;) Just kidding!!!

Reading back on Skye1's now inmortal review of DOs... there's one point that struck me on repeated reading... the DO organizer screaming in tehir hotel room about stuff.

Well, that was me... at CMD3. My roomie had to talk to me down and take me out for a walk to the Brooklyn Bridge to get away from it all. The rules: No Do talk, NO flyertalker talk... just walk to Brooklyn nad have cheesecake at Juniors!

Maybe that's another tip... the afternoon before the big main event just disappear with someone and NOT think of Dos or Flyertalk or travel or anything. That saved me from a nervous breakdown.

Congrats Skye1 on FT "inmortality." :)

Excellent advice and something often overlooked. ^^

Last night's dinner with ten non-FT friends of 20 years we came up short for the first time. Gracious person-in-charge-with-calculator tossed in the difference realizing someone just mistook the denominations on their currency. Not worth making an issue. You can't do this with regular/larger groups.

FTers who regularly stiff organizers? Firing squad at sunrise isn't practical, because some of us are still in the bars , but....

1. Small-event organizer has to have a private word with person-who-does-not-pay-fair-share. Public outing is bad. Very bad. Most of you know who the regulars are. As a single traveler, I try to overpay by 10-20% beyond tax, tip, wine, and meal, so I don't leave an old-lady cheapass rep behind me. (Hope it's working. If it isn't, PM me.)

2. Large event probably needs to use some service like EventBrite. It's unfortunate if you pay for xxx Euros and then can't attend, and I have have had that happen, AND TRAVEL INSURANCE WILL NOT COVER, but the organizer shouldn't have to pay either.

3. Some of the larger events don't have any leeway built in with the restaurants. In other words, the organizers are pushing to get the required 40 covers for a certain price, and they only get 38. Excellent, but if only 32 actually pay, disasterous.

4. We're NOT pros! Doing our best to have a good time for everyone. Appreciate what you are offered, enjoy it, and pay compliments and full price GDMIT!