A Full AND Complete "Buffet Serving" of The Big Apple...err "The Apple DO"...plus
Mar 29, 2001 | 5:31 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: 3A - most likey <> BKK <--> EZE; TACA 3A nobody, but GP million miler; Hilton Gold sometimes. Successfully divorced from CO PLAT.
Posts: 3,079
A Full AND Complete "Buffet Serving" of The Big Apple...err "The Apple DO"...plus
A Full AND Complete "Buffet Serving" of The Big Apple...err "The Apple DO"...plus a "forced layover" as my selected side dish (for dessert).
Tvl4free traipsed off to NYC this
past weekend to do "The DO".
While still in the trip planning stage, I decided to really make "a weekend of it" - and "just for the fun of it" - to hone and practice my FT rules and booking skills - and in the process, to maximize the 10 segments which could be harvested on "the DO" trip, in exchange a whooping $ 4.75 round trip airfare "out-of-pocket" investment.
In preparing what was to be "just a trip report", I discovered that perhaps there's a rule lesson which could be reviewed here... a topic which has been previously mentioned... but I don't recall an actual example having been presented. So I give you now another chapter for "The Primer"... a "newbie" Lesson in "forced layovers" so to speak, which has been combined with the trip report. Humm, where should this report be properly posted...the Buzz since it's a lesson, or Trip reports...maybe General Travel Talk...??? With your indulgence, I'll take a stab at one of these... I still have a few minutes B/4 I decide.
Although lengthy, perhaps there's food for thought here that someone might find useful...I do hope you enjoy... and perhaps we all can learn something along the way! It's time we all talk TRAVEL, once again!
Tvl4free considered fares in the ABQ-NYC market to be excessive for a non-business, leisure type event. Two tkts were pricing at just over $600 apiece. Therefore, I decided to take advantage of the Southwest effect and booked two RTs ABQ-PVD for $ 254.00 per person. This $254 could have been discounted even further with a UA 15% discount coupon to $220 and change, including tax. Instead, I elected to apply a Customer Service voucher of $250 per tkt. These vouchers were the result of United's generosity from the four "Crazy Fare" tkts I had purchased to Paris. Total out-of-pocket cost, $ 4.75 - nine dollars and change for the two. Unfortunately, using both the discount and the voucher could not be accomplished. Tvl4free whispered, "bummer, oh well!" - and so I did not entirely live up to the lofty ambition that my moniker implies! OK...so I'm hearing you cry, "fowl!". Anyway, four seventy-five is almost free. So get over it!
But the best news is that according to the CS voucher, full MP credit will be due.
The $ 254.00 fare that I purchased allowed four connections in each direction - and a potential of 10 total allowable segments to be havested. You will note that this is the maximum allowable on UA's domestic fares. However, in order to accomplish 5 segs on the way up to PVD, I would have had to depart very early in the day. Since I had some early morning work to do, I decided to build in a "forced layover" into my itinerary.
Tvl4free thinks that forced layovers are a good thing for FTers to know about!
Previously, I've been somewhat admonished on this board for "pushing the envelope" in terms of harvesting the maximum number of segments permissible under any given fare. Well, my official response to that is now well developed... If two of us visit an "all you can eat" fixed price buffet and you chose to visit only the salad bar, and I have the entre and dessert bar as well... would you owe any less than me? Does tvl4free owe any more than you? I simply partook of all that was permited and offered for the fare. Nothing more, and sometimes I eat less! Sometimes airlines offer me nothing to eat at all, and I pay full Y fares. (Surely there must have been a sometime...???).
Here was my itinerary, which has been altered slightly to protect the guilty and to avoid the potential "hanky panky" that is now being reported in other threads:
1 UA1124W 21MAR ABQDEN 133P 250P/O
2 UA 450W 21MAR DENDFW 345P 632P/X
3 UA1562W 21MAR DFWORD 720P 930P/X
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 UA 160W 22MAR ORDIAD 600A 849A/X
5UA7636W 22MAR IADPVD 105P 230P/X
6UA7633W 28MAR PVDIAD 630A 800A/O
7 UA 881W 28MAR IADORD 940A 1043A/X
8 UA1707W 28MAR ORDDFW 1158A 230P/X
9 UA1183W 28MAR DFWDEN 410P 511P/X
10 UA 781W 28MAR DENABQ 550P 702P/X
(I purchased a "thru fare" from ABQ to PVD. No stopovers were allowed on this fare. Note that the X after segment 4 indicates that ORD was a connection).
In essence, "forced layovers" permit a "free stopover" when none are allowed on the rules on the fare. "Forced layovers" are most useful for late in the evening business meetings or better yet, for late nite dinners with friends and/or FT gatherings at intermediate cities. Also it can save one "a chunk of change" - and avoid a much higher "broken stopover fare" - if one knows how to use the rules to one's advantage.
Most folks think that one must depart a connecting point within four hours. However, this is not necessarily the case. From UA's Contract of Carriage, I give you the domestic stopover Rule:
A stopover, as used herein, will occur when a pgr arrives at an intermediate or junction transfer point on a flight of any carrier, and fails to depart from such an intermediate or junctiion transfer point on:
[i]
1). The first flight on which space is available; or,
2). The flight that will provide the psgr's earliest arrival at intermediate or transfer points or destination point...
To arrange a forced layover, one simply has to arrive at "the desired" connecting city (the "forced layover" point) so that there are NO MORE flights out to the destination which MEET THE MINIMUM ALLOWABLE CONNECTING TIME (MCT) AND/OR THE NEXT AVAILABLE FLIGHT RULE. In other words, there have to be no more "available" flights out to the destination OR IF THERE IS A FLIGHT OUT, it must NOT meet the MCT required OR it must NOT be "available". To further expand on this rule (just for those who are technical buffs like me) there CAN actually BE another flight out. However, it must NOT be "available" (ie. the class of service that you need is NOT available on any remaining flts out, they're fully booked IN the COS that you will be using, "W" for example. Note that this does NOT mean that the flight is totally zeroed out), so you would be allowed to skip that flight, since the rule states that one must take THE NEXT AVAILABLE flight. In short, just think of it as "there are no more flights out" that evening - but it can be a little more than that - as was described above. In theory then, one could take a morning flight out to say NYC with a cxn in ORD. Once arriving in ORD, if the flights are fully booked for the COS that you need, you could layover there virtually forever, exceeding the four hour stopover rule, until the COS that you need is available. This would be the next "available" flight. But in general, a "forced layover" will require a departure from the originating city late in the day so that the last flight out to the destination is missed in the connecting city.
I wasn't going to, and I am confident that I am going to regret it, but you know that I'm gonna anyway, open a can of worms, that is! Note that the COC states that one MUST take the next available flight when passing thru a connecting city. It does NOT state that one may arbitrarily layover in a connection city for UP TO 4 hours. Therefore, if one arrives at 12 noon and there is an available flight out at 1PM, one MUST technically take the 1PM departure, and not the 3:59PM departure, for example. Some airlines (sometimes) strictly enforce this rule (CO & TW), while others don't (UA). If one is building an itinerary segment by segment online, as long as the connection is within four hours the itinerary will price, and so I wouldn't worry about it all that much. OK! OK! I know! I know! Just remember, I am not the message, just the messenger!
Next edition:
About my Flights
Personalities at The DO
Frequent Flyers Anonymous
Tvl4free traipsed off to NYC this
past weekend to do "The DO".
While still in the trip planning stage, I decided to really make "a weekend of it" - and "just for the fun of it" - to hone and practice my FT rules and booking skills - and in the process, to maximize the 10 segments which could be harvested on "the DO" trip, in exchange a whooping $ 4.75 round trip airfare "out-of-pocket" investment.
In preparing what was to be "just a trip report", I discovered that perhaps there's a rule lesson which could be reviewed here... a topic which has been previously mentioned... but I don't recall an actual example having been presented. So I give you now another chapter for "The Primer"... a "newbie" Lesson in "forced layovers" so to speak, which has been combined with the trip report. Humm, where should this report be properly posted...the Buzz since it's a lesson, or Trip reports...maybe General Travel Talk...??? With your indulgence, I'll take a stab at one of these... I still have a few minutes B/4 I decide.
Although lengthy, perhaps there's food for thought here that someone might find useful...I do hope you enjoy... and perhaps we all can learn something along the way! It's time we all talk TRAVEL, once again!
Tvl4free considered fares in the ABQ-NYC market to be excessive for a non-business, leisure type event. Two tkts were pricing at just over $600 apiece. Therefore, I decided to take advantage of the Southwest effect and booked two RTs ABQ-PVD for $ 254.00 per person. This $254 could have been discounted even further with a UA 15% discount coupon to $220 and change, including tax. Instead, I elected to apply a Customer Service voucher of $250 per tkt. These vouchers were the result of United's generosity from the four "Crazy Fare" tkts I had purchased to Paris. Total out-of-pocket cost, $ 4.75 - nine dollars and change for the two. Unfortunately, using both the discount and the voucher could not be accomplished. Tvl4free whispered, "bummer, oh well!" - and so I did not entirely live up to the lofty ambition that my moniker implies! OK...so I'm hearing you cry, "fowl!". Anyway, four seventy-five is almost free. So get over it!
But the best news is that according to the CS voucher, full MP credit will be due.The $ 254.00 fare that I purchased allowed four connections in each direction - and a potential of 10 total allowable segments to be havested. You will note that this is the maximum allowable on UA's domestic fares. However, in order to accomplish 5 segs on the way up to PVD, I would have had to depart very early in the day. Since I had some early morning work to do, I decided to build in a "forced layover" into my itinerary.
Tvl4free thinks that forced layovers are a good thing for FTers to know about!
Previously, I've been somewhat admonished on this board for "pushing the envelope" in terms of harvesting the maximum number of segments permissible under any given fare. Well, my official response to that is now well developed... If two of us visit an "all you can eat" fixed price buffet and you chose to visit only the salad bar, and I have the entre and dessert bar as well... would you owe any less than me? Does tvl4free owe any more than you? I simply partook of all that was permited and offered for the fare. Nothing more, and sometimes I eat less! Sometimes airlines offer me nothing to eat at all, and I pay full Y fares. (Surely there must have been a sometime...???).
Here was my itinerary, which has been altered slightly to protect the guilty and to avoid the potential "hanky panky" that is now being reported in other threads:
1 UA1124W 21MAR ABQDEN 133P 250P/O
2 UA 450W 21MAR DENDFW 345P 632P/X
3 UA1562W 21MAR DFWORD 720P 930P/X
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 UA 160W 22MAR ORDIAD 600A 849A/X
5UA7636W 22MAR IADPVD 105P 230P/X
6UA7633W 28MAR PVDIAD 630A 800A/O
7 UA 881W 28MAR IADORD 940A 1043A/X
8 UA1707W 28MAR ORDDFW 1158A 230P/X
9 UA1183W 28MAR DFWDEN 410P 511P/X
10 UA 781W 28MAR DENABQ 550P 702P/X
(I purchased a "thru fare" from ABQ to PVD. No stopovers were allowed on this fare. Note that the X after segment 4 indicates that ORD was a connection).
In essence, "forced layovers" permit a "free stopover" when none are allowed on the rules on the fare. "Forced layovers" are most useful for late in the evening business meetings or better yet, for late nite dinners with friends and/or FT gatherings at intermediate cities. Also it can save one "a chunk of change" - and avoid a much higher "broken stopover fare" - if one knows how to use the rules to one's advantage.
Most folks think that one must depart a connecting point within four hours. However, this is not necessarily the case. From UA's Contract of Carriage, I give you the domestic stopover Rule:
A stopover, as used herein, will occur when a pgr arrives at an intermediate or junction transfer point on a flight of any carrier, and fails to depart from such an intermediate or junctiion transfer point on:
[i]
1). The first flight on which space is available; or,
2). The flight that will provide the psgr's earliest arrival at intermediate or transfer points or destination point...
To arrange a forced layover, one simply has to arrive at "the desired" connecting city (the "forced layover" point) so that there are NO MORE flights out to the destination which MEET THE MINIMUM ALLOWABLE CONNECTING TIME (MCT) AND/OR THE NEXT AVAILABLE FLIGHT RULE. In other words, there have to be no more "available" flights out to the destination OR IF THERE IS A FLIGHT OUT, it must NOT meet the MCT required OR it must NOT be "available". To further expand on this rule (just for those who are technical buffs like me) there CAN actually BE another flight out. However, it must NOT be "available" (ie. the class of service that you need is NOT available on any remaining flts out, they're fully booked IN the COS that you will be using, "W" for example. Note that this does NOT mean that the flight is totally zeroed out), so you would be allowed to skip that flight, since the rule states that one must take THE NEXT AVAILABLE flight. In short, just think of it as "there are no more flights out" that evening - but it can be a little more than that - as was described above. In theory then, one could take a morning flight out to say NYC with a cxn in ORD. Once arriving in ORD, if the flights are fully booked for the COS that you need, you could layover there virtually forever, exceeding the four hour stopover rule, until the COS that you need is available. This would be the next "available" flight. But in general, a "forced layover" will require a departure from the originating city late in the day so that the last flight out to the destination is missed in the connecting city.
I wasn't going to, and I am confident that I am going to regret it, but you know that I'm gonna anyway, open a can of worms, that is! Note that the COC states that one MUST take the next available flight when passing thru a connecting city. It does NOT state that one may arbitrarily layover in a connection city for UP TO 4 hours. Therefore, if one arrives at 12 noon and there is an available flight out at 1PM, one MUST technically take the 1PM departure, and not the 3:59PM departure, for example. Some airlines (sometimes) strictly enforce this rule (CO & TW), while others don't (UA). If one is building an itinerary segment by segment online, as long as the connection is within four hours the itinerary will price, and so I wouldn't worry about it all that much. OK! OK! I know! I know! Just remember, I am not the message, just the messenger!
Next edition:
About my Flights
Personalities at The DO
Frequent Flyers Anonymous
Mar 29, 2001 | 5:57 pm
#2
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,351
He, he, great flying and pricing, and nice meeting and chatting with you tvl4free. I still am annoyed I did not carry with me the UA upgrade printed rules you somehow hacked out of the UA computer, as I got the Third Degree at airport. Well worth ALL UA flyers printing that one out - indeed for ALL FT'ers to read to see the detailed airline data that is hidden in many corners of these boards:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum50/HTML/005047.html
For the info and probably amusement and/or bewilderment of those who do not read the UA boards tvl4free mentioned at Idlewild that he got sent $2,000 from UA for NOT taking the four USA-Paris $27 type fares (inc. taxes) he (and many other FT'ers) were able to book on line when the UA computer screwed up last month. Must be a record payout for NOT taking booked flights?
------------------
~ Glen ~
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-29-2001).]
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum50/HTML/005047.html
For the info and probably amusement and/or bewilderment of those who do not read the UA boards tvl4free mentioned at Idlewild that he got sent $2,000 from UA for NOT taking the four USA-Paris $27 type fares (inc. taxes) he (and many other FT'ers) were able to book on line when the UA computer screwed up last month. Must be a record payout for NOT taking booked flights?
------------------
~ Glen ~
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-29-2001).]
Mar 29, 2001 | 7:40 pm
#4
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA 1K, DL Platinum, Lifetime Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Gold
Posts: 206
tvl4free,
Pardon my ignorance, but how do you handle the overnight?
A) Buy a hotel room
B) Get UA to buy you a hotel room
C) Hang out in the terminal or RCC
Nice meeting you at the DO.
Danny
Pardon my ignorance, but how do you handle the overnight?
A) Buy a hotel room
B) Get UA to buy you a hotel room
C) Hang out in the terminal or RCC
Nice meeting you at the DO.
Danny
Mar 29, 2001 | 11:44 pm
#6
In memoriam
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: TUS
Programs: AA 1.8 MM, DL, Hilton Gold, SPG Gold,
Posts: 3,430
I knew you could do it! Nice job! For a place to sleep...well don't we all have hotel points? It was a blast in NYC with you, thanks for all the great tips!
------------------
MRKEY
------------------
MRKEY
Mar 30, 2001 | 7:07 am
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: 3A - most likey <> BKK <--> EZE; TACA 3A nobody, but GP million miler; Hilton Gold sometimes. Successfully divorced from CO PLAT.
Posts: 3,079
Originally posted by Echelon:
Pardon my ignorance, but how do you handle the overnight?
A) Buy a hotel room
B) Get UA to buy you a hotel room
C) Hang out in the terminal or RCC
Pardon my ignorance, but how do you handle the overnight?
A) Buy a hotel room
B) Get UA to buy you a hotel room
C) Hang out in the terminal or RCC
Originally posted by EPS:
How does one book more than eight segments without awakening the Pricing gnomes?
How does one book more than eight segments without awakening the Pricing gnomes?
I'm unsure if I'm really understanding the question... but I'll take a stab at answering what I think you're asking:
If one is booking more than 8 segments, generally UA's system won't price the itinerary. Either a Rate Desk Agent will have to do it for you, or you'll need a competent travel agent.
Sometimes on UAL.com one can shove in more than 8 segments and the system will work. Rather than entering each segment one by one (ie., SFO-DEN and DEN-JFK) you can force two segments into one spot(SFO-JFK). But you've pretty much got to supply the exact correct times (you already know what flights that you want) or you'll get an error msg stating something like, "unable to find flights".
Or does your question relate to the Gestapo, better known as the Delta Revenue Protection Unit?
[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 03-30-2001).]
Mar 30, 2001 | 10:53 am
#9
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Always on vacation
Programs: aa exp - spg gold - Hyatt Diamond - HH Gold
Posts: 6,007
It was a pleasure to meet you at the DO.
Appreciate very much your "lets talk flying input"
Being an avowed budget traveler your postings have been very helpful. If I can't get the price I want its either ff miles or don't go. Seems to me with the resources you have and we talked a little bit about them at the DO you pretty much can always find the price. Es la verdad?
Anyway thanks also for pointing out that there are certain things that you can't get online and you have to go to a Rate Desk Agent .........or you'll need a competent travel agent. Can't reiterate enough that it is mucho importante to find a competent travel agent.
Appreciate very much your "lets talk flying input"
Being an avowed budget traveler your postings have been very helpful. If I can't get the price I want its either ff miles or don't go. Seems to me with the resources you have and we talked a little bit about them at the DO you pretty much can always find the price. Es la verdad?
Anyway thanks also for pointing out that there are certain things that you can't get online and you have to go to a Rate Desk Agent .........or you'll need a competent travel agent. Can't reiterate enough that it is mucho importante to find a competent travel agent.
Mar 30, 2001 | 11:48 am
#10
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 1P; HHonors Silver
Posts: 2,686
I thought the web site limited you to eight segments for E-Tickets, and UC 3.0 also imposed an eight segment limitation.
I've had a similar experience with the web site; it usually fails to price "micromanaged" itineraries. I tend to do much better specifying every other place I want to connect, and letting it fill in the blanks.
I don't like having superfluous humans in the loop. I ran into "but there's a nonstop available" coming back from the Catman Do. I had to explain to the check-in agent at JFK three times that I really wanted to fly through Los Angeles. (JFK-LAX was only about half full, and the LAX-SFO segment ended up departing with two empty First Class seats; I don't know why the agent was being so pushy.)
I haven't encountered a competent travel agent in many years.
I've had a similar experience with the web site; it usually fails to price "micromanaged" itineraries. I tend to do much better specifying every other place I want to connect, and letting it fill in the blanks.
I don't like having superfluous humans in the loop. I ran into "but there's a nonstop available" coming back from the Catman Do. I had to explain to the check-in agent at JFK three times that I really wanted to fly through Los Angeles. (JFK-LAX was only about half full, and the LAX-SFO segment ended up departing with two empty First Class seats; I don't know why the agent was being so pushy.)
I haven't encountered a competent travel agent in many years.
Mar 31, 2001 | 7:59 am
#11
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Always on vacation
Programs: aa exp - spg gold - Hyatt Diamond - HH Gold
Posts: 6,007
I haven't encountered a competent travel agent in many years.
Mar 31, 2001 | 12:24 pm
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: 3A - most likey <> BKK <--> EZE; TACA 3A nobody, but GP million miler; Hilton Gold sometimes. Successfully divorced from CO PLAT.
Posts: 3,079
My saga continues in another thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum81/HTML/001668.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum81/HTML/001668.html
Apr 1, 2001 | 6:17 am
#14
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: 3A - most likey <> BKK <--> EZE; TACA 3A nobody, but GP million miler; Hilton Gold sometimes. Successfully divorced from CO PLAT.
Posts: 3,079
Originally posted by Echelon and probably erroneously answered by Tvl4free:
Pardon my ignorance, but how do you handle the overnight?
A) Buy a hotel room
B) Get UA to buy you a hotel room
C) Hang out in the terminal or RCC
If all flights run smoothly, A is preferable, B is not an option, and C is to be considered as a last resort (ie., you arrive at 1AM and need to be back at the airport by 4:30AM or so).
Pardon my ignorance, but how do you handle the overnight?
A) Buy a hotel room
B) Get UA to buy you a hotel room
C) Hang out in the terminal or RCC
If all flights run smoothly, A is preferable, B is not an option, and C is to be considered as a last resort (ie., you arrive at 1AM and need to be back at the airport by 4:30AM or so).
UPDATE:
In retrospect, selection "D" which I've listed below, should seriously be considered - unless, of course, some mega mile hotel bonus was being offered, in which case answer A would certainly be appropriate!
Tvl4free likes MrKey's suggestion to:
D. sleep4free
(In mean, why didn't I post that concept earlier, since two nights of my five nite trip above were courtesy of Hilton Honors?).
Hummm, sleep4free - that's as good as prk4free, huh?
[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 04-01-2001).]
